RWL217 How to Transition to a Remote Role and Thrive w/ Founder, Remote Rebellion, Michelle Coulson

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
0:02

Hey everybody. It's Alex from the Remote Work Life podcast. I have with me today somebody who I've known for a number of years and I've been meaning to invite onto the podcast, michelle Coulson. And Michelle is somebody who, as I said, I've been meaning to invite on the podcast for years and years. I'm so happy to have her on here today. She's the chief remote rebel and founder of remote rebellion and we're very similar in terms of what we do. But, as I said, I've known Michelle and I've followed her post for a number of years. I just wanted to have her on the podcast and lots of people say good things about Michelle. So happy to have you here today, michelle, thank you.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
0:44

Thanks for having me that's good to hear that I'm being talked about in a positive and lots of people say good things about Michelle. So happy to have you here today, Michelle, Thank you. Thanks for having me. That's good to hear that I'm being talked about in a positive light.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
0:51

Nice to hear, Definitely, and just before we got on, we were talking about where we are. Where are you today? Where are you situated?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
0:59

I am in sunny Bali today.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
1:03

Oh lovely. I'm in London. It is quite sunny today, but not quite as warm, I guess, as Barley, but no good to have you here. As ever, we want to find out about you. This podcast is all about you where you got to, your experiences of remote work, etc. I've got quite a few questions I want to ask you. I don't know if you're going to have time to ask all of them in the time that we have, but we'll do our best.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
1:25

So, for those who don't know, just tell us a bit about yourself, michelle, tell us about what you're doing sure, in a nutshell, the short version, I am enabling and empowering people to work remotely so that they can live the life that they design, instead of one that's designed for them based around a job, based around a location. And, yeah, giving them that not just the encouragement and the confidence that they can jump outside of that nine-to-five office life, but also giving them the tools and resources and connecting them with the right people so that they can work remotely. And that doesn't mean that they have to be digital nomads travelling around the world. That might just be that they want to stay at home with their kids and see their kids grow up, raise their children as they want to, or people who want to be at home with their pets, look after an elderly parent just whatever remote work and whatever freedom and flexibility means to that person.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
2:23

And that's the key, isn't it? I think that's what, for me, remote work is about, and, yuzi, you're touching on that. There's so many different versions of what remote work is Digital nomad, work from home, co-working space and freedom is the thing that I think more and more people are looking for in in their lives, and especially when it comes to work. People are realizing now that they don't want to be necessarily tied to a particular location. They don't want to necessarily be in an office not saying there's anything wrong with being in an office, but I think each and every person thrives in different environments. So I think, definitely, you're empowering that, you're creating that sort of that movement, or you're a force behind that movement. So it's to me, it's great.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
3:08

Thank you.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
3:09

So now, something I want to know, michelle, is what got you to this point. How did you get to the point where you're in the position that you are today?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
3:20

So I was working in well before I got into recruitment. So I was working in recruitment for about seven years before I established Remote Rebellion. There was a bit of a backstory before that. I have always been a lover, a passionate about travel. I just, I absolutely love travel and when I left university I was trying to find every way I possibly could to stay traveling and I was doing random jobs, from working in a Great Dane kennels in Sydney to working in a burger joint in the middle of nowhere in the outback to campsite courier in Italy, all sorts.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
3:52

I did many random jobs to just keep traveling, but they were really low-paid jobs and quite labor-intensive and not necessarily things that I actually wanted to do. So remote work wasn't really wasn't a thing to do. So remote work wasn't really wasn't a thing people spoke about then, so it wasn't really something I knew about. And I carried on living this not proper job until kind of late 20s and realised, okay, I want to be able to buy a house, I want to do all of the things that you're supposed to do in your late 20s supposed to do. Do all of the things that you're supposed to do in your late 20s supposed to do and get do all of the things that you're supposed to do. So I got a proper job in recruitment. Thought I was just going to do it for a couple of years and do it for a bit of money and then travel again, but I actually really enjoyed it and I realized I was good at it as well. I think you come from a agency recruitment background yourself, right?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
4:39

so I do so there's the pros and the cons of that and I found myself getting sucked into the negative sides of that and, ashamedly, actually, I caught myself. I was a contract recruiter, so actually treating people for my measurements and my numbers and getting people into interviews even if I knew they weren't the right fit for the role because I had my KPIs to hit, and it makes me feel a bit like queasy. Stop talking about it now, because it's a whole different version of me. I always empathize with agency recruiters because I think you get turned into the beast like you become the beast because that's the environment you're in, right. So I got a bit.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
5:15

I ended up leaving that job and went on a cycle through Europe for five weeks and found myself, or whatever you want to call it, and it ended up going into in-house recruitment and that reignited my not I wouldn't say love for recruitment, but reignited like realizing I'm actually good at this and this doesn't have to be the dark side of recruitment that it had gone into. And I worked in-house for an app development company. Absolutely loved it. I got to hire all of the people I got to work around with me. I had an awesome office environment, great team, great people I worked with and I just I loved it. But then it was about 2016-2017. I realized remote work was something more and more people were talking about. I was hiring developers, and that was back in the days. I don't know if you remember 2016-2017. Developers had the power they were like. Tell me what you're going to offer me.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
6:09

I don't know if I'm gonna, I'm not if.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
6:10

I'm gonna work for you. What do you have to give? And I'm like what, this, what?

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
6:14

is this.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
6:15

So Brexit was around that time so we couldn't get developers from Europe, so it was really hard to hire unless we were able to offer the big bucks or offer more flexibility. So I really pushed and nagged with my current employer. I was like we need to do this remote, we need to have flexible working. So back 2017, I got there in the end after a lot of persistence, and we're then allowed to do up to four days a week remote. So I was like, okay, winning, which back then was quite an achievement.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
6:45

Then, when the pandemic hit fast, fast forward to 2020, everyone's working remote, the office is closed and I was I'm really miserable. Like I realized how unhappy I was living in London. I was in my early 30s. All of my friends and friends were moving out to the suburbs, getting married, having kids, and I didn't want that. But I didn't know what I did want and I was like I definitely don't want it. I'm really unhappy here. So I started thinking about what I wanted, what made me happy, and that was being by the ocean, being by the sea, being in a warm climate, and I looked back at my time in Southeast Asia in the past. I was. I was really happy there. So I thought, okay, the office is closed, I'm going to go to Bali. I'm going to go there for a couple of months until the inevitable callback comes from my boss okay, london's opening. And when that call did come, two months later, I felt sick. I was like I absolutely do not want to leave here. There's, I'm so much happier, I'm more productive, I am surfing in the morning, I'm spending the days the way I want to.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
7:40

It was I was just I was living life, but still working eight hours a day and managing to do both. I was having the having it all eight hours a day and managing to do both. I was having the having it all, as they say. And I said to my boss. I said I can't go back and he's you can't work from there. I was like why not? I've been doing, I've been working remotely for the past 18 months. I don't understand why. And I always say I imagine the little Britain moment of computer says no, there was not. Like there was like no real reason. And I was getting really frustrated, hence the name rebellion. I was just like I was peed off. I was like why? And that was that, is that it's company policy. I was like, okay, I quit. And that's when I was like, okay, quit my job. Didn't have anything to go to, didn't have any savings, I had a mortgage to pay in London, but I just knew I'd find a way love it so go on.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
8:25

I didn't realize you'd you've done that, though that's something that's. But I think when you have those feelings, you have to follow those feelings and I think for you, you, for me, just listening to that little monologue there you just I understand that you're a determined person. You know what you want, yeah, and I have a feeling you know how to get what you want as well. But at that point when you quit your job, get what you want as well, but at that point when you quit your job, did you have any sort of plan at all?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
8:50

Yeah, I thought, ok, I'll do some freelancing recruitment, I'll help startups hire remotely. That was the idea I had in my head. I didn't have anything solid, but I was like I'll figure this out, I'll find a way. And that was mid, sorry, so it was about April 2021, june 2021. So that's when a lot of the companies that had were coming out of this lockdown. Companies were hiring again. So recruitment was in a good place then and I just figured I'll find a way.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
9:16

I've got a good network. I've been in recruitment for seven years. I'm good at what I do. I'll find a way, and I always talk about this like safety net as well.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
9:24

I feel like anyone who takes the plunge and does something without having it takes a plunge to do something out of their comfort zone. There's different levels of safety net and I figured I don't have rich parents or a partner to support me. It was all on me. But what I did have is if can I swear on this? Um, if, like, shit hit the fan and everything went to pot, I would be able to move in with my sister, live in my nephew's playroom and I would have food on the table. I'd have a roof over my head, I'd have my family around me that loved me and I'd have food on the table.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
9:59

Some people don't have that safety net, so I think it's almost like a crying shame if you don't make the most of this and you don't take the plunge, because what's the worst that can happen? I'll lose my house, I won't have any money, I won't have any savings, but I've still got all of these things. So to me it that was like what's the worst that can happen. That's the way I assess that. And some people don't even have that safety net. Some people, literally, if it doesn't work out, they end up homeless.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
10:23

That's like next level right yeah, and it's, and I think that's a good point. Actually, you have to. I don't know what you think of this, but if you're in that situation where you're trying to figure out what to do next, you have to take your circumstances into consideration, not overthink them, but you still have to, and it sounds like that's what you were doing, but also, but also it sounds like you're a pragmatic person as well, in the sense that, or even a glass half full person, because you're thinking to yourself what's the worst that could happen? It's going to. Things aren't going to. The world's not going to open up and consume you. You're going to find a way, sort of thing. No, I like that, I like that. Okay. So that I like that, okay. So how did you go from then?

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
11:07

because when you were talking about recruitment just then, and contract recruiting, I had some flashbacks there because I used to work as a contract recruiter myself, where you're chasing the sort of the job comes in and you're like Alex, there's a job in and you're rushing around trying to find that CV. Call them up before anybody else calls them up.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
11:21

Yeah, get them through to the, you know get those kpi sort of yeah, I had a bit of a flashback there. But recruitment, though, I guess so many skills that it gives you and as much as there are a lot of bad recruiters that are out there, and it appears that most of the bad ones, in my humble opinion, are agency recruiters. There are good ones, but you really have to pick out the, what you have to really look for the good ones. It does give you some great skills, doesn't it? It gives you great skills, which obviously you have. So then, how did you? How did the remote rebellion? What's the genesis of remote rebellion? From that background in recruitment and sales, yeah I was.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
12:00

I thought, okay, so I need to find some companies that will allow me to work remotely doing recruitment. So I was considering freelance, I was considering permanent, but I had a real hard time finding companies that would allow me to work remotely from Bali. Some of them were like, yeah, we're remote, but you need to be in the UK and I'm like why You've got all of these employee records? And again, I don't agree with just having a no unless you've got a good reason. Give me a good reason why it's a no that you've got all of these employee of records. I don't say no for an answer, as you can tell, unless you give me a good reason.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
12:33

I can tell yeah.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
12:36

So you've got all these employee of records, you can go freelance, you can. There's ways around the whole tax and legal reasons which a lot of companies cite as the reasons for not allowing work from anywhere, and essentially they just don't want it enough and maybe they don't like diversity. I'm just gonna dump that in there a little bit with a bit of fire so that I was getting annoyed about that. But I did manage to find a couple of companies that would allow me to work remotely and I did freelancing with them. But then it got my cogs turning. I was like, if I'm struggling so much and I know the market I've been in recruitment for seven years, I know how it works, I'm well networked so if I'm struggling with this, then the average person's going to be really struggling to find remote work as well. So I that kind of went in my head a little bit. I'm like, huh, okay, and then I was.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
13:18

I met there's a lot of coaches in Bali and there's a lot of bad ones, and I I my first coach that I hired was a bit of a crappy one, but he did plant some seed in my head because he was a coach of coaches, which there's a lot of and he was putting me into a box of saying, oh so, tell me what you want to do, tell me what you're good at. And he said, oh so you're essentially a coach. And I'm like no, not really. And he's like are you? And he gave me that label and it didn't sit well with me, but he made some good points. If you're teaching people how to do this, you're doing that. And I was like okay, I don't think I'm a coach in the way of a qualified coach. I think I'm a fitness personal trainer coach and I'm like do these exercises, do this? I'm more like a trainer than a than a coach, because I think they're very different and I don't want to undervalue and undersell what good, qualified coaches are.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
14:07

But he planted that idea and then on a boat trip it sounds like quite magical, but it was on a boat trip around the Komodo Islands I had this ping. It was really nice. I had this ping moment and this light bulb moment of yeah, I can help people on their journey here. I can actually sit with them in this situation. I was in and be like okay, what is it you want? What do you want to do? What does life look like for you and what do you like? Not in a life situation, but like. What do you want? Like we were talking about before. What does freedom and flexibility look like to you? What does an ideal job and company look like to you? And help them find the opportunities, know where to look, help network with them. Help them to network, sorry, and really connect them with the right people so that they can find a good match for what they want. Reverse headhunting, really. Rather than finding a person for a role, I'm working with someone to find the right opportunities, the right companies and roles for them.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
15:02

Beautiful. I love that and I think it's the principles of job. I don't know it's a catch-22, because a lot of people who are looking for a job there are, there's sort of like a segment of people who want somebody to do the stuff, all the grunt work for them and look for the job and help them write their CV for them, get in touch with a client. But there's like that sweet spot which you've just described, which is essentially empowering people to do that for themselves. And it sounds like that's what you, that's what you're doing, whilst showing them, giving them like the rudiments and the sort of not the rudiments the sort of roadmap to to go from where they are to where they want to be. And yet a lot of people, a lot of people yeah, it's lots of people struggle with that and yeah, for you. Then, when you had that aha moment, what did you then? What did you do next after that?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
15:55

I didn't know what it was gonna look like, I just knew I was gonna help people and do you know it's really funny people like, how did you get your first client? I was like I actually don't remember and it's really weird that I don't remember it being so much of an effort, which I sound really arrogant saying, and I feel a bit guilty having that. Don't be guilty no I love it.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
16:16

I just feel a little bit like and my very first client was someone that I worked with at the same company and we worked on a one-to-one basis and we would go through everything one-to-one, and I was winging it a little bit because I was like, okay, I know I can help him with this, but I want to know first of all what he needs help with. And I didn't yet have that data, like I do now, two and a half years later or longer, of what people actually struggle with. So the more people I worked with on a one-to-one basis, I'm like, ah, so people are struggling with finding the opportunities, figuring out what they want, knowing how to reach out to people, knowing how to get some feedback and things like that. It wasn't till I worked with maybe 10, 15 clients on a one-to-one basis. I'm like, okay, I'm getting a common theme now of what people really need help with.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
17:04

And confidence is such a big one and it's one that I, ironically, I didn't think I didn't have the confidence to think I could help people with their confidence, and it just it happened as a happy accident that once you're looking at the two parts, we're very easy and quick to say I'm not good at that. I don't have experience here. I mean, who would hire me with this? All of like negative self-talk we're all really good at that. I'm really bad at saying what we're good at, because we've been told, especially in Europe and especially in Eastern Europe, from at because we've been told, especially in Europe and especially in Eastern Europe, from the people I've been speaking with of, you know, this tall poppy syndrome of don't big yourself up too much, don't be so cocky. And we like it feels icky for us to shout about our achievements and what we're good at, so encouraging people to first highlight it with them. Okay, so you said you did this and this. That means you're great at that, it means you're good at that and you could do that, and like, ah, oh, I didn't think of it that way. So it's so like improving their confidence in that way. But also, once they become more skilled in knowing more about how recruitment works, how the process works, they become more competent, which then entail it then leads to them being more confident in things. So that's had a massive part to play in it.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
18:20

It's not just the logistical improve your cv and bob's your uncle. There's a lot more to it. There's a lot more, especially with remote work, because it's become so much more competitive in the last couple of years. You really can't. Just you, don't you. It's not enough to have a good cv anymore. All these like cv writing services. So many people ask me can you just rewrite my cv? I'm like I can, but it's probably not going to help you that much. So you could have the best cv in the world. If you're not well connected and you're not putting yourself out there and you're not able to sell yourself, then and that's what it is you're selling and marketing yourself and it's a. It sounds a bit icky to say, but that's you're offering a service and you're selling that service you know what I think you're more than a coach from.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
19:00

I mean you're because I think, especially with this again, the job search it requires more than just a coach. I think I think nothing against career coaches. I think they do a really good job. However, career coaches will just almost point you in the right direction. I think there's much more needed with this, with what we're talking about, in what you do actually, in that you're instilling confidence, like I said before, showing the processes, telling them about the background of how the actual job search cycle works, and telling them that you can't lean the actual job search cycle works, and telling them that you can't lean on your CV, you can't rely on all these different things. So I think, from what you're saying, it's what you're doing is much more than coaching. It's coaching plus.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
19:44

And then it's for another thing that you said that really resonated with me as well is that the confidence side of things. You said that you were almost trying to get the confidence that you could give people confidence to get a job. That's something that I actually also suffer with, because I'm pretty confident when it comes to, like what you say, the processes, cv, all these different kind of things, but when it comes to me being confident, I actually sometimes undervalue myself in terms of what I have to offer. It's quite funny when I'm trying to, I'm instilling confidence in others at the same time. Maybe I need a coach.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
20:19

If you don't have one already, I would definitely recommend getting one, because it's really made a massive difference to me of just reaching out and speaking to an expert who knows how to get the most out of you. And that's essentially what it is, and that's why people hire personal trainers. Yes, they could go and go on YouTube and learn the moves themselves, but actually having someone there who's tweaking and guiding and treating you as an individual, I think it's invaluable. I've definitely I feel like I've upped my game since getting coaching from someone else. I'm able, like it's empowered me more to know the bits that I'm good at, and I can then, yeah, deliver to other people and something I was going to ask you, which is because you were on the.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
21:00

You were at the time when you were thinking about remote rebellion, even though it wasn't probably wasn't called remote rebellion. Then you were on the cusp of almost shall I go back into employment or shall I just do it myself? And I guess the push for you was I can't find none of these people who are hiring are going to allow me to work the way I want.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
21:21

Yes and no. I actually did have two freelance gigs that allowed me to work from wherever I wanted, allowed me to be, and one of them was actually paying really well. I think in the early days it was paying me more than I ended up getting from remote rallying in the beginning. It wasn't out of a need. Actually, it was more out of a passion of this is something people need and I think I've got this to give and it really for the first six months maybe I didn't take it so serious. I was like, oh, I'll just do a bit of coaching here and there and I didn't see it as a business, but I knew there was something I could give and people were receptive to and got value out of. So I think after the first six months that one was like it.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
21:58

It wasn't about the money, it wasn't about the need, it was about it was a real drive to to build something that would help people. And maybe my motto or my mission is to enable people, not enable. I guess I want people to live with fewer regrets, and I know that seems like a negative or the dark side to go in, but I want to enable people to live the life that they want. That's for me. I'm really passionate about that.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
22:29

And me too, because I don't want to look back. Who does want to look back and think what if I did that or I could have done this? I think there is an element of that in there that you don't you're. You're empowering people. You know that word again, empowering people to pursue the line of work and the mode of work that they want to pursue. And it's better to go down that line, isn't it, than just not even try.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
22:49

So yeah it's a great thing. And while we're on the sort of topic of the subject of business, tell us a bit about Remote Rebellion, the business Can we talk through that?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
23:01

Sure, I mentioned before, I started off doing one-to-one. After about a year, that's when I realised, ok, I want to build a group programme so that it's scalable and so I could help more people who maybe couldn't afford doing the one-to-one. So I created a program. I read everything online. I've created a program in one month and, yeah, I thought it would take me two or three. And it took me seven. Yeah, because I wouldn't say I was a perfectionist, but I really. The more I was adding to it, I was like, oh, and I could tell them about this, and I could tell them about that. And it ended up building out to 10 modules and we don't even get to the CV part until module five.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
23:39

So there's quite a lot of foundational groundwork of what is recruitment. This is how we work and really peek behind the curtain of how the average recruiter thinks and how they work, and I don't mince my words in it as well. So there's not a lot of fluff, quite a northern lass. I like to just say it how it is as well. So there's not a lot of fluff, quite a northern lass. I like to just say it how it is. And that can be a pro and a con sometimes, because I can be and I will say to people when I have a discovery call listen, I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea, sometimes I can be a little bit too blunt and direct, but it's coming out of a place of love and because I want you to do well.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
24:10

So just a warning, a warning created the program and realized the value that having group calls and having a community was in the process. I really didn't think it was going to be as valuable as what it is and what people are getting from. That is, yes, I can give them advice and I can give them support, I can give them that motivation, but I'm not the one looking for a remote job. So, as much as I can empathize with them, I'm not going, I'm not in the trenches with them. So but actually by joining a community of other people who are in this, with them they're searching for a job as well and they're getting the knockbacks, they're getting the rejections, they're getting ghosted, all of the things that comes with job searching. At the moment, other people can speak with them and have conversations with them about that, so they can ask me advice on those weekly calls, but they can also have offline conversations with these other people and actually connect and share jobs with each other and share advice, and I just had this interview. What do they think they meant by this?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
25:08

So that's been big having that community and being able to shift on there as well, and that platform has opened up to be able to then do a really a more basic option where it's just the program, just the online program itself for people in lower income countries and maybe can't afford the other bits. So that's the free main services is what I'm offering at the moment and if people want to do one-off, one-to-one sessions, I do that. But I always do a caveat that, like this, one session isn't going to potentially fix your issues. You can come in and ask questions, but you can't expect after a one-hour session to just have all of your problems solved. So I do offer those one-to-one sessions with that caveat if they want to do that.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
25:47

So that's where it is at the moment, but I really in the near future I want to move back into doing recruitment again and I want remote rebellion to be the go-to place for companies looking for remote talent and for remote wanting to, for people wanting to work remotely. Because I miss recruitment. I'm good at it and I love connecting people. I love matchmaking. It's a matchmaking service in my opinion it is.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
26:13

No, I love that, I love your ethos and I love what you're setting up and what you've got established. I wanted to ask what was the question I was going to ask next. Yes, yeah, so I know you mentioned tech is an area that has been in your background, but what kind of people go through your programme in terms of? I know you're not limited to digital nomads. Is there a typical kind of type of person?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
26:38

I thought there would be. I thought it would be European in their 30s wanting to work from anywhere. And do you know what, like I've been, I'd say it's almost 50 50 split male female. There's been almost 40 different nationalities from every continent that have been in the program, which surprised me. I thought it would only be mostly European North Americans but it's been a real mix. Most people are not from the country that they're currently in, which is quite cool, so that adds another dynamic.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
27:11

We've had 21 year old graduates from the UK to 68 year old in the US, so it's been a real mix and from people who, like I mentioned before one one person wants to work remotely so she can care for her partner who's got a brain injury. Someone wanted to spend time with their kids because they didn't spend much time with their first child and really didn't want to make the same mistake with the second. Who want to be digital nomads. A lot of people want to move for love because their partner lives or is from a different place and they want to spend time there. So, yeah, there's been a real mix what about skills as well?

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
27:45

Is there a particular skill set that you go for?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
27:49

Again, everyone says you're supposed to niche down. I like variety. I like working with a marketing manager one minute and a software engineer the next. I like working with someone who's a dance choreographer on a cruise ship, who's never had a remote job and doesn't know what she wants to do, to a digital director with 20 years of experience who just wants to do the same job, but remotely. So I'd just say, if you, if I had to pinpoint the disciplines that were most common, I would say it's project and delivery and ops and software engineers and marketing.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
28:22

But there's a real mix and a common theme I'm getting with maybe 80% of my rebels are that they don't just want to get a remote job. They want to get something that aligns with their values, so something in social impact, something they're interested in, and this is why they come to me. A lot of people come to me and they can go and get any job themselves, but people don't want just any job anymore. They want something that is meaningful and that doesn't mean that they're saving lives. It just has to mean something to them to them.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
28:50

Yeah, exactly that. And I know I guess this podcast is not just about the life as an employee, but you're also giving us a perspective of somebody who has gone out there and has set up their own business, and there's not just that, but has done it always doing it on a remote basis as well, so that that is quite scary to some people. Clearly, nothing scares you. Some people are quite fearful, I think, of like, taking the plunge into, like the entrepreneurial route which you have taken, and one of the things that you mentioned you on was that you were talking about clients and you weren't really that concerned about how you would get clients at that particular point. How have you built that now? Because that's one thing that lots of people struggle with is the client side, client acquisition. How do you do that now yourself?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
29:40

now the majority of people are either through referrals or from hearing about me on podcasts or from LinkedIn posts, so I'd say the majority is from LinkedIn. So I've started taking LinkedIn seriously for the past 18 months and posting every day, and that is anything from me complaining that companies are posting fake remote jobs I'm sure you've seen a few of those. I'm just having a bee in my bonnet about something and, sorry, if you can hear the dogs, barley dogs, that's okay. Okay. So anything from posting about that to giving advice on what people, what employers, want to see on a cv, to to highlighting great remote work opportunities, so people see that content, something resonates with them and they reach out and we have a conversation, have a call and they become a client.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
30:32

So I've only done paid ads maybe once and didn't get too much of a response, and I think the main reason for that is people are coming out and finding me, so they're making the effort to go and search for either me or someone like me or someone that can help them, whereas if something flashes up in an ad and it's in your face, it's made easy for you a little bit and I always want to just take on any client, any rebel, because they need to understand there's a certain amount of work that goes into this.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
31:02

I'm not going to hand them something on a silver platter Because even if I could, even if I could say, hey, I've set up an interview for you, alex, you've got to do the work, you've got to actually put in the energy and do the research and interview. So I don't want people and I've actually had a call I remember having a discovery call with someone in the UK and I say the UK because English was his first language and he said something along in the first 10 minutes of so how are you going to get me a job? And I was like I'm going to stop you there, I'm not going to do anything he's like.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
31:28

But I'll pay yeah and he's like, yeah, but I'm paying you and I'm like you're not paying me anything because I'm not signing you up, because this is not how it works. Being comfortable turning away clients was like the moment where I was just like, okay, this is important because I, if I get people who join the especially if they're on a group program and they say one bad apple spoils the bunch they're coming in with a bad attitude and they're like this should come to me because I want it. They're not the kind of people who are going to succeed. The people who are going to succeed are like the people who are adamant that this is what they want and they're going to find a way to do it and they're going to put the energy in because it's not easy. Now that that's been important for me and sorry if I waffled around the answer to your question no, you didn't, you didn't.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
32:10

And I think, the other thing I want because, like I said, I I have to I'll be honest with you. I'm, I've been, I'm on a journey myself right now and I've I've done a mixture of entrepreneurial stuff and I've done a mixture of remote freelancing, etc. And it's I from a personal standpoint. I know how, when you're thinking about employment, the safety net of employment, yeah, or perceived safety of employment, employment and starting an entrepreneurial venture.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
32:40

It can, yeah, it can be tricky for some people. I know for me as well. I've got kids, so I'm thinking to myself, whereas before I was like in my 20s, 25, 26, I was like quite risky in a way, but now you come, you're a bit more risk averse. Do you take on people as well who, for example? Or do you advise people on the sort of entrepreneurial side of things as well, or you just focused solely on those who are seeking to get into employment?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
33:06

yeah, it's funny you should ask that actually because I did a testimonial video with a rebel the other day and he got a remote gig, but he also set up his own business. And I asked one of the questions like, but what was the unexpected benefit you got from the remote job academy? And he said that you helped encourage me set up my own business. And I was like that's not what I did. I never talked about that. I go through the options of these are the options you can get an employment, you can go freelance or you can set up your own business. But that's about as far as I went, and he's, I know you forced me to ask. You asked me the right questions that made me think what do I actually want and how do I get that so? So I was like, oh okay, so maybe this could be a new direction, because I think entrepreneurship gets what's the word I'm looking for. They big it up to be some what's the word I'm?

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
33:55

looking for, I think, overinflated almost. I think, sometimes and YouTube people coming on and saying here's my Lamborghini or whatever it is.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
34:03

Yeah, it gets highlighted to be some and I had this naive vision of like, when I'm my own boss, I'm going to work for two hours a day and then I'm going to surf and I'm going to sit in a hammock and I'm like I work more hours now than I did as an employee Way more hours so and I met for a coffee with someone I met on LinkedIn the other day and she decided to move away from her business that she'd set up that was fairly successful. She stepped away from it completely after years of building. She's like I just want to work for someone else. I just I don't want that being an entrepreneur, and I think that takes incredible strength to be able to step away from something you built and say do you know what? This is not for me anymore. This is not serving me. I'm quite happy to just be working for someone else. And I think that takes a lot of, I guess, a lot of putting the ego aside. I don't know.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
34:54

Have you been weighing up which direction is best for you? Which is best for me? Yes, but for me, my pull is always towards entrepreneurship. I'm always being pulled, but at the same time, like I said, there's a little thing saying, oh, I can do that job, so there's that pull as well. But for me right now I'm thinking because I used to do I used to have a job board, for example I used to do recruit recruitment as a freelancer and then I thought I went back into the job market again and I got probably got a bit comfortable in the job market in 2008 we all know what happened in 2008 and then the pandemic and things.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
35:29

Then you realize that there's no such thing as much as hard as it is when you're a business owner or you're even a freelancer. It can be just as hard in in a job. Yeah, because, like I said, there's no such thing as a permanent job. No, and I actually believe as well that you have to have more than one income stream. This is nothing new. I'm not saying anything revolutionary, but being in a situation where I've been in corporate life as well as entrepreneurial life, you have to have, because there's one point where I had this. I had a recruitment business and I was doing really well and I like just was just focused on a couple of clients and then the pandemic came and then just everything just slowed down.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
36:10

Yeah.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
36:11

So I think that was a harsh lesson that I learned that, regardless of whether you're an employee or you're a sort of an entrepreneur, you need to have different strands of income to stabilize yourself. And I think and we don't really learn that in school or anywhere university, no, but it's just a matter of how, I think is, how do you do that? And I think one thing that people struggle with I don't know if you've noticed this, but is finding out is understanding the what's going to help me. What's going to help me to generate money and not just like money that will help me to just get by, money that's going to help me to actually thrive.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
36:49

And another thing I think is well, I think people, the perception of some business, especially like solopreneurs, one-person businesses is that they don't really earn that much money. Do you know what I mean? So, through all this sort of research that I'm doing on podcasting, I'm understanding that there are more and more people who are fed up of being laid off or fed up of the commute, whatever it may be, and are deciding to take a different step entrepreneurship, lean business, whatever it may be. That's my long rant. No, you're totally right.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
37:22

And I think it is about figuring out what it is that you want. What do you want to do with that money as well? I think that's an important thing. What does Thrive mean to you? That might be for one person that they're able to eat in Michelin star restaurants every day. For others, they just want to be able to not have to look at the menu prices when they order at a mid-range restaurant. It really differs for every person.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
37:44

No, it does, it really does. And just differs for every person. No, it does, it really does, and just for you as well. I could so many questions I want to ask, but I know we're starting to run out a bit of time, but what I wanted to just add is I suppose we've talked about some of the challenges as well, but is travel, michelle? Is that still important to you? Is that still an important aspect to you, or are you less on the side of that now?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
38:03

definitely less. I think the the older I get, the more I want a base and I want to be settled. So it's less about the travel and more about the freedom. So I've been in Bali on and off for about three years now, but in between I've done travels to Europe, or just to Europe actually, and to Australia as well.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
38:22

So I think for me it's I'm looking for my two bases now because I've realized I like the differences between Southeast Asia and Europe, because it makes me appreciate. It makes me appreciate the order on the roads in the UK compared to the craziness of Southeast Asia. But then I appreciate the food more in Southeast Asia compared to Europe and that I don't think there's one perfect place, even for a perfect place for one person. I think I appreciate both more when I get the differences. So for me that's what I would want and just the freedom to be able to travel. But I don't have that same urge that I did in my late 20s, for example, of I need to see new places and I need to go here, like sometimes I'm like, oh, getting on a flight.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
39:07

That sounds like an effort no, yeah it is, I think, same with me. I used to probably travel around a bit more when I was younger and be willing to go to different places. But to you, a base is what I have my base in London, but I think at the same time it'd be nice to have a little base in I don't know, portugal maybe, and holiday home there and come back to that would be nice For you. What's the future hold, then, for you and for your business?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
39:38

I think for me. I've been setting my personal and professional goals recently, so this is quite timely. I want to have two bases I want to have my goal for this year is to have a place where I can see the ocean and hear the ocean. I want to go to sleep at night and I want to hear the ocean. So I don't know which country or which ocean that's going to be, but that's a goal for my, for me. And then I want to have a second base. So if that place is in Europe, then have a second base in Southeast Asia and and I want to have those two homes, those two bases, stable.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
40:09

That's a really important thing for me and for the business I think I mentioned on it before being the go-to place for companies wanting to hire remotely and for people looking for remote work, whether that's freelance, whether that's permanent, being that household name, because I'm realizing people talk about legacy and having kids to to have a legacy in life. Like I, at the moment I don't think I want children, so I don't have the legacy in there, but I want to have remote rebellion as a legacy that I leave, just so I had my mark on the world and this is what I contributed, this is what I did, yeah, so that's where it's going and that's the direction it's heading in.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
40:46

Sounds great. I think you are forging your path, forging your legacy there. It definitely is. You're making an imprint and I think, yeah, really glad to have had you on the show today. I'm going to obviously leave your details in the show notes, and where's the best place for people who are looking to connect with you, Michelle, if you want to drop some URLs or what that is your socials?

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
41:08

So on all socials you'll find me Remote Rebellion. So LinkedIn, Michelle, Remote Rebellion, Website remoterebellioncom, and Instagram, I believe, is Remote Rebellion as well. So they're the main three places to find me. I'm not really on Facebook or TikTok or anything, so they're the main points of contact.

Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote work life:
41:26

Excellent, or TikTok or anything. So they're the main points of contact. Excellent, I'll be leaving your details in the show notes Anyhow people can reach out. But, michelle, it's been a blast. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I've got so many more questions that I could have asked but we were out of time. But, yeah, lovely to see you and all the best.

Michelle Coulson @ Remote Rebel:
41:40

Lovely, thank you.