RWL073 How to Achieve Digital Marketing Success and Manage a Remote Team w/ Steve Anson of Vortala

Remote Work and Digital Marketing Success

Speaker 1

0:00

Hello everybody. I just wanted to say good morning wherever you may be in the world. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. It's Alex again, and today I'm fortunate to be with somebody who I've been following unsuspectingly he's not aware I've been following for quite a while. I've been following Steve Anson for a number of years now and I wanted to. I thought it'd be a really good idea to interview Steve, because I know there are a lot of you who are trying to get into the world of not only digital marketing, but you're all keen to know about what's needed, what's required to get into the world of remote work. So I wanted to introduce you to steve who, who runs quite a big team. He has 70 plus people. Am I right in saying steve? That's correct, nice to meet you, and his company is vortalacom, and in a minute I'm going to get steve to tell us a bit more about him and about vortala. But just thank you so much, steve, for giving of your time today.

Speaker 2

1:09

You're welcome, Nice to meet you and nice to spend some time chatting about remote work and digital marketing the passions of my life.

Speaker 1

1:17

Well, passion, well, my passion as well. Tell us about.

Speaker 2

1:20

Tell us about Vortala us about, tell us about Vortala Sure thing. Well, we got started back in 2005. Simple idea was to help doctors with their website. So I started with chiropractors, then we started working with dentists and other health care practitioners and we started here in Australia. It was like a pilot study, like any new business. You kind of get started slowly and you just try to test the market and see what's going on.

Speaker 1

1:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2

1:47

Learn some of those early lessons. First six months we got about 30 clients in Australia, and then me and my business partner Bill, who's an American, we launched the business in the US and it kind of took off from there. So we've always been true to serving the healthcare space. Here we are, 13 years later. We have around about 2,500 clients around the world mostly UK, australia, new Zealand and North America and a team of around 70 people. Excellent, and a team of around 70 people.

Speaker 1

2:24

Excellent, and for you, I mean your background. As far as I can see, you've got quite a mixture of things in your background and one of those things was recruitment. Recruitment is one of the areas that you were in previously right and then you transitioned into marketing. Was that deliberate on your part, do you think? Yeah, sure, you were in previously right and then you've transitioned into into marketing. Was that? Was that deliberate on your part, do you think?

Speaker 2

2:48

yeah, sure, so I I worked in recruitment in london um for a few years. Uh learned the the ropes there a tough market oh yes came back to australia and started a company here.

Speaker 2

3:02

So I ran that business for a decade or so and you know I was just looking for a change, a change in direction. Recruitment was changing very quickly with the advent of job boards. This is back in the early 2000s and you know, I thought healthcare, that's not going away. It's not going away, that's sensitive growth. Um, I love the idea of working remotely. I have four children, so it's great to sort of be around and see them grow up. Um, and the fourth thing that I was looking for was the opportunity to travel. So I get to travel a lot now with team members all around the world and clients all around the world. So I had those kind of four characteristics healthcare, internet-based work from home and international travel. And then, just kind of through thinking about that, pondering that, this idea came to mind and then one thing led to the next, and here we are, 13 years later.

Speaker 1

4:04

It's amazing, it's an amazing story and I think it just for me, it reinforces the idea that I think a lot of people see the remote lifestyle in inverted commas as just a lifestyle choice. Do you know what I mean? And I think a lot of people underestimate the power of really planning your career in a direction that suits you. So you know, shaping your career around your family, as you've done so well, steve, and you mentioned as well that you deliberately took the avenue of health care. Now, if there's anybody out well, there are people out there listening would you? Is that something that you'd recommend? Would you recommend niching down to a specific sort of vertical, because I know there's lots of generalists out there, but there are also people who prefer niching out. What would you recommend?

Speaker 2

5:03

I think that specialization is a much more powerful business model than being a generalist. You know, with the internet you can serve clients all over the world. We have clients in 20 countries and you know we are able to present a very compelling value proposition when it comes to serving dentists or chiropractors and some awesome other healthcare disciplines. We have a very rich feature set that you just couldn't do if you're a generalist. And just the depth of knowledge you acquire about how dental patients think and behave online, how dental practices actually function, the range of dental services and the language and jargon of dentistry.

Speaker 2

5:49

These are things you can do as a specialist, but you just cannot do that as a generalist. One day you're working with a trucking company, the next day with a florist, the day after that you're working with whatever. So you can never really get a depth of knowledge or understanding to ramp up the value that you can deliver. So I think specializing is a great idea. The other thing I would say is that you know, in this Google-centric world, it's a good idea to target a market that you can be the best in the world at, world at. You know, if you just if that means just targeting a very small niche, specializing in a particular small niche, something that you're knowledgeable about or you're passionate about, and just set your sights on being the best in the world, serving this community, this, this industry, this sub-sector, whatever it might be for you.

Speaker 1

6:41

Nice, that's great advice and I know a lot of people and in fact, this is kind of um something. I have to admit it's something that I found difficulty with a lot. So I know you mentioned the healthcare profession. It's not going to go away. So that's essentially one of the ways in which you choose. You chose your niche, but what, I suppose? Are there any tips that you can give to any sort of freelancers out there would be-be freelancers or even people who are looking to get into a particular market? As an employed person, how do you go about choosing or looking at niches that might suit you, or choosing a niche?

Speaker 2

7:20

Yeah, you know. I think that, as I've already mentioned, if there's a niche that you're particularly knowledgeable in or passionate about, that's always a good starting point. Of course, you need to look a bit deeper than that and ask yourself well, do they actually have an interest in digital marketing? Do they have a budget for digital marketing? All of these factors are important as well. All of these factors are important as well, but I think you'll find these days that most industries and sub-industries are participating in digital marketing in some way, shape or form, and I think, just start there. Start with what are you knowledgeable in, what do you have a passion for? Then start doing your research about who are the companies out there that are serving their market.

Speaker 1

8:11

How could you compete with them, um, and then build on that great advice again? And I mean I'm probably gonna take you back a little bit now in terms of when you started out, you know, when you started out with vortyla, but how did you go about again, because I know some people use different tactics to build their client base. How did you go about again, because I know some people use different tactics to build their client base how did you go about, um, getting your first clients on board? You know what, what tools, any, any tips there for any freelancers listening, or people, yeah, any freelancers especially yeah, I mean I think that, um, the other thing I would comment on is the importance of timing.

Remote Team Management and Hiring Strategies

Speaker 2

8:47

I mean you can have the best strategy in the world, the best team, you can have funding to execute your business plan and all those good things, but if the timing is wrong, well then it's kind of like working into a headwind or paddling upstream. It's kind of like working into a headwind or paddling upstream. So we were very fortunate that our timing in the market was just exceptional. It was a time where our initial target audience was chiropractors. It was a time where they were kind of just waking up to the potential of the internet to grow their practice and we just showed up at the right time. So we got going with a few chiropractors and then the words and it just kind of got a bit of. It started to grow steadily from there.

Speaker 1

9:38

Oh, I lost you for a little bit there, steve, and it's like super. I lost you for a little bit there. You said you got going with. You said you got going with chiropractors and I lost you after that.

Speaker 2

9:50

Sorry, yeah, we got going with chiropractors and you know we just started doing some email marketing, some seo work, so our, our website, which is called perfect patients um, was ranking well. For you know, search to obvious search terms like terms like chiropractic website design or chiropractic SEO stuff like that.

Speaker 1

10:11

So it's a mixture of things, because I know some people will just tend to get on the phone, others will do email, but you're recommending sort of a variety of different methods of acquisition client acquisition.

Speaker 2

10:25

Yeah, you know, I think the methods that worked early on won't necessarily work today. I mean, you could work with relatively cold email lists, you know, 10, 12 years ago. These days that's almost a waste of time and money. I think, of course, the big trend these days is inbound marketing. So having a really publishing, really-quality content that's findable, and then when people are looking for a service like yours, you kind of show up in their searches. That's a pretty powerful way to go about marketing, but it's also a difficult way to market. I mean, if you want to go the inbound marketing route, it take at least a year, if not two, before you start seeing any results at all.

Speaker 1

11:08

In my experience, so patience is very much the key, and also persistence and actually talking. I mean let's, let's switch on to, because I know that, um, you have, as we said before, at the top of the show, you have a team of 70, and that's that blows my mind really does in the remote space. I know how difficult it is to to run a team of 70 and that's that blows my mind really does in the remote space. I know how difficult it is to to run a team that is sitting in front of you. So, um, I've got to take my hat off to you for managing a team of 70 around the world. So what I wanted to ask, steve, is um, we were talking about the. You know the characteristics of, uh, you know of getting, if you're a freelancer for, for example, getting clients on board, but what do you look for when you are hiring somebody for your remote team? What sort of softer characteristics, I suppose you would say, do you look for?

Speaker 2

12:00

Yeah, we look for people who don't need or want a manager. So people who are highly self-motivated. We look for people who don't need or want a manager. So people who are highly self-motivated. We look for people with maturity. So once they understand what's expected of them in their job, they really can't get on and just do it.

Speaker 2

12:15

One of the things we say to our team is we really don't mind if you're working at 2pm or 2am, as long as the work gets done. So very high levels of trust, very high levels of empowerment for our team to kind of get the job done. So we look for people with those sort of characteristics. We do often favour people who've got some experience working remotely, because it is a discipline or a skill that you need to acquire. Not everyone is cut out to be able to work from a cafe or their home office and so forth. We also look for people who have a genuine reason to want to work from home. There might be something going on in their life where that flexibility is really important to them. There's a variety of factors we look at when we're choosing talent for the company and obviously, um, you're in, um, you're in the digital marketing space.

Speaker 1

13:13

I mean, and I know you from time to time you're you're hiring people. At the time that you're watching this, it may be that steve is not hiring, but, um, what typical roles do you do you hire for when you are hiring?

Speaker 2

13:31

Yeah, right across the digital spectrum. A really popular role would be digital marketing specialist, which is like a frontline role working with a portfolio of clients, but then some of the background roles like SEO specialist. But there's some of the background roles like SEO specialist, pay traffic specialist, graphic designers, copywriters, developers and so forth.

Speaker 1

13:56

So right across the spectrum of digital marketing. Excellent. So if somebody was to approach you because I know I mean in the group that I run and also on my mailing list what people tend to do is they will list literally all of the skills that they have within digital marketing. And so, for example, somebody the other day said to me Alex, can you keep an eye out for somebody who may be hiring digital marketer? I've got copywriting skills, I can do paid search, I canwriting skills, I can do paid search, I can do SEO, I can do proofreading. So she kind of like really laid everything out for me to sort of really consider. I mean, for you, how do you prefer for people to, let's say, somebody approaches you on a speculative basis? How would you prefer somebody to approach you? Um, you know, for the best effect?

Specializing in Digital Marketing Talent

Speaker 2

14:51

yeah, um, I.

Speaker 2

14:53

I think that my team, the folks on my team who are have higher responsibility, would, um, prefer to, uh, be approached by someone who's got some focus, who's not a generalist who's saying, hey, I'm a copywriter or I'm an SEO specialist or I'm a paid traffic specialist.

Speaker 2

15:16

It's just when someone shows up and says I can do all of this, it's just kind of not that believable in 2018. It's just become too complicated to be adept right across all channels. So, in the same way, earlier in our discussion, I commented that I think that specialising in an industry segment is a good idea. I think that, in terms of you know, for digital marketing professionals, if they can find an area within the digital marketing spectrum that they are more passionate about, more interested in, that makes a lot of sense. I would also say that I mean, in my experience, if you've got digital marketing skills in 2018, if you want a job, you've got one, because there is an undersupply of talent in the marketplace. Now most of our team are in north america, so it depends where you're located on the planet, but you know there is there is a growing demand for digital marketing talent. I think the market is very strong for people who are looking for opportunities in that sector.

Speaker 1

16:33

Any particular areas of that, then I mean so what do you well, not just you, but generally speaking in the marketplace, what sort of skills do you struggle to get? Are there any particular skills that you struggle to get?

Speaker 2

16:59

I think it's difficult to find really good talent in each of the areas, really good talent in each of the areas.

Speaker 2

17:13

You know, just taking a step back, thinking about digital marketing or marketing in general, it's really about traffic and conversion. So if you can brand yourself as a traffic specialist, like getting organic traffic through SEO or paid traffic, that's powerful. If you can brand yourself as the conversion side of the equation, like in a really rich design that engages the website visitor, or fantastic content that persuades them you know copywriting that persuades the visitor to choose your client's business yeah, that's, I'm sure I'm answering your question very well, alex. But you know, if you can show up as someone who has got these skills, as a graphic designer or a copywriter or a SEO specialist, and you can link that skill to getting tangible business results, that can be really important. Because often I find that digital marketing people sort of are working in a vacuum. They do SEO work and it drives traffic to the website, but they don't really join the dots and say, well, how much of this traffic is actually converting and, you know, generating new business for my client? Does that make sense?

Speaker 1

18:20

Yeah, that does make sense, and I think you've touched on something actually that one of my previous interviewees said, and before I actually get onto that, so, yeah, seo is something actually worldwide that people seem to sort of quite struggle with when it comes to sort of finding quality. But another thing you touched upon is a lot of digital marketers or not just digital marketers people. When applying for roles, they'll tend to list out what they can do, or even if they've drilled down to a specific area, they tend to leave out the results that they got. You know the thing that sort of entices the recruiter to sort of want to call them and helps them to stand out from other people who are that's exactly right.

Speaker 2

19:10

You know you have to link the activity with the outcome, with the result, and so forth yeah, and do you get, I mean, another problem that that I discussed with a previous um.

Speaker 1

19:20

A previous guest is um, the problem that he has, he, when he puts out a job, he gets like umpteen CVs or umpteen applications. Is that, I mean, are there any problems that you get when you're sort of you're hiring, that actually somebody who's applying for the job could help you to sort of you know, because for him he said that the problem, like I said, the problem he had was that he got umpteen CVs and the way that somebody could help him who's applying, somebody who's applying for the job, helped him was actually by sort of you know, getting a nice concise CV, for example, or getting a nice portfolio that stood out from everybody else. Are there any sort of areas where job seekers might be able to help you to to actually think actually, yeah, I want that guy or that, that woman yeah, I mean the way that we think about the selection process is eligibility and suitability.

Speaker 2

20:18

So eligibility is, you know, do they have the qualifications and actual hard experience to to match with our job requirements? And that should be pretty observable. So you know, I suppose their application and their resume needs to be really clear that, yes, I've got the skills and experience to match with. You know what I understand your needs to be. So that's the first hurdle. Once you get sort of beyond that hurdle, then suitability, which is more subjective, comes into play. Are they going to be the right cultural fit, um, are they going to embrace our values and so forth? Do they have, you know, sound reasons for wanting to work remotely, etc. Etc. So it really is. I mean, I think that when you're making your application for the role, it's really important to just acknowledge that the first hurdle is eligibility. Do I actually have the skills and experience and can I present that to be to get to the next level in the selection process?

Speaker 1

21:15

and in terms of the actual um. So there's lots of tools actually as well that I've noticed that people who work remotely tend to use. So for example I don't know HubSpot is a tool that seems to come up quite a lot. Google Drive is another tool that seems to come up quite a lot. Are there any sort of tools that you typically have within your sort of your working environment that you use often at all?

Speaker 2

21:47

Oh sure, I mean there's, you know, there's the, the likely suspects like hubspot or like salesforcecom and you know other other more prominent sort of platforms. Um, they all make sense. I mean, I, you know, for us, we, it doesn't really bother us whether someone knows word or some other CMS and so forth. They're just transferable skills. You know, generally speaking, sometimes we would favour someone who has very specific experience with a particular sort of software application. But yeah, it's obviously important to list the experience you have and the different technologies on your resume.

Speaker 1

22:29

Definitely Just moving on slightly. Where do you? Because I know obviously remote work is something that's becoming en vogue now. It's becoming a lot more popular, it's becoming quite fashionable in some ways. Where do you see the world of remote work going, Steve? Are there any trends that you see in the world of remote at all?

Speaker 2

22:54

Yes, absolutely. You know. I think that talent from emerging economies is going to get more and more of the share of virtual work because trust is increasing all the time. You know, we've got 70 or so people Most live in Western countries, but maybe 20 or so live in either Asia or Eastern Europe and so forth and I just see the quality of talent getting better and better. I see cultural awareness improving. So communication barriers are lessening all the time.

Speaker 2

23:31

So if you're a western person looking for a virtual opportunity, you're not going to be able to compete on price. So how can you compete? And I think that you need to compete in terms of people skills and being able to in frontline roles, working directly with clients and so forth. So project management skills and coordinating teams, that type of thing. So you need to sort of find your edge. Yeah, so there's definitely some emerging trends and I think that's a that you know the trend I'm talking about. I suppose there's a little bit of a threat to talent in the uk or australia, oh yeah, so you do need to sort of find your edge and normally the edge is around those softer skills, around communication and teamwork and project management and so forth and getting teams working well together okay and for for tarlet and perfect patience.

Speaker 1

24:32

What's the? What's the? What does the future look like for you in terms of? Are you happy with the way the team is now in terms of, like the growth, or are you looking to expand to service more clients? Or what does the future look like for you?

Speaker 2

24:49

yeah sure, we're looking to grow um, uh and uh. I think the opportunity for us today is much better than what it was 13 years ago when we started. You know, if you're in um, if you're running a healthcare practice and you're not active online and promoting your practice, you're really missing out on opportunities. So we see an incredibly bright future. So we're looking for expansion of our client base across North America, uk, australia and New Zealand.

Speaker 1

25:18

No, it sounds good. And you mentioned Perfect Patients. Perfectpatientscom is where people can find Steve, where you can find Steve. And, in case there are any chiropractors listening or any healthcare professionals listening, tell us a bit more about um perfect I know. I'll tell you what. There's quite a lot of um not just freelancers, but agencies um out there who are servicing the healthcare profession. Obviously you've got lots. You've got a wealth of experience, a great team. What other things set you apart in terms of um you know, from other, from other agencies um steve?

Speaker 2

26:02

yeah, I would say that a couple of things come to mind. The first thing is we understand how healthcare consumers think and behave online. You know, with a couple of thousand clients we get to study, you know, millions of website visitors to our clients. So we understand the steps they take before they convert. So we really have a deep understanding of, you know, of how someone is looking for a chiropractor or a dentist or a psychologist, the steps they take to find a local provider. And the second thing I would say is that we have this integrated approach. It's what we call the five factors of digital marketing success, and it starts with a high converting website. Factors of digital marketing success and it starts with a high converting website. So the right design of the right content to convert as many website visitors as possible. The second factor is a traffic strategy, primarily the normal Google century these days in the earned or paid traffic.

Speaker 2

26:58

Three would be directories online reviews is managing your online reputation. Four would be email marketing, which, done correctly, gives you an incredible return on investment. And five would be social media. So it's about having a digital strategy that integrates all of these different channels, all the touch points across these channels, between understanding how healthcare consumers behave, how they think when they're looking for a local provider, and also building a proven, tested and tried digital marketing strategy. You really can get some optimal results by approaching it that way.

Speaker 1

27:33

That's wonderful and that's comprehensive. It's end to end, so it sounds great. Steve, I just wanted to say thank you so much, um, for for being with us today. We've we've learned so many things and I think it's always good to hear from you, know the ceo, because obviously you you set set the actual sort of um framework for what goes on. So I want to say a big thank you to you and I want to wish you all the best with vortilot and perfectpatientscom for the future as well.

Building Remote Team Culture for Success

Speaker 2

28:04

thank you you're welcome and I just I'd encourage your, your listeners to you know, really look very seriously at the opportunity to work remotely. I think it's a very important part of the sort of world of work landscape. Um, it's getting easier and easier. 10, 12 years ago, when we started out um, we were offered these remote positions and people thought that's not a real job. Yeah, I'm quite suspicious about it, but it's become, it's becoming more and more. I won't say it's mainstream yet, but it's, it's nutting its way into the mainstream it is yeah who wants to commute, for, you know, an hour or two a day in London traffic.

Speaker 2

28:43

My goodness, give me a break.

Speaker 1

28:45

Not me, not me.

Speaker 2

28:48

There's just so many benefits. The rule in my house is that I can't come to lunch if I'm still in my pajamas. I think that many of my team members have got a similar thing going on in their space as well. So the flexibility is wonderful, and I think it's going to become more and more popular for employers to offer this flexibility in the future.

Speaker 1

29:12

No, I couldn't agree more, and I think I actually myself. I fell into remote work, but I still think there are some sceptics out there, steve. I think there's still people who are saying is this some get-rich-quick scheme or some make-money-online-from-home scheme? But it's a tangible, it's a real career option, and I'm trying my best to be that person who sort of profiles and shows what people like you're doing, steve, to actually encourage people. You know. So it's brilliant.

Speaker 2

29:47

It's brilliant and we want to keep the things I hear um, one of the things that um other business owners or managers might say to me is yeah, how can you manage a team that's that's so spread out in different time zones? You know? How do you know what they're doing, um, and what they're talking about is you know? How can you trust your team?

Speaker 1

30:05

Yes.

Speaker 2

30:06

Responsibility and so forth. And you know, the way I think about that is that even if they were all working on the same floor in an office building somewhere, if you've got issues with trusting your team, just having them, you know, in the same proximity is not going to solve that yeah, precisely, precisely. And what you want is to empower a team to feel trusted and be trusted. That's what talented people are looking for, you know.

Speaker 1

30:35

So yeah, Well, you know what, steve, I think it's, as you know, and I I know, when you come, when it comes to hiring people, it's not. It's not an easy thing. It's, it's okay. Lots of people will use the psychometric tests and you know, for me you can use that, but you could use your gut as well. At the end of the day they're listening or any people who are looking to grow their remote team. How do you go about? I suppose what's the word? Um find you know, knowing that that person? I don't know 100%, but how do you know that person is right for your team?

Speaker 2

31:14

yeah, you're right, I'm picking talent. It's tricky, it's a social science. It's not an exact science, you know. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, like you, I was not a background in recruitment, so I've been involved in the hiring process for a lot of my working life the selection process and I just see it as data points.

Speaker 2

31:33

Like you know, when someone applies for the job, you get their covering letter, you get their resume. It's sort of one data point you can start to draw some, make some judgments from that. Then you've got the reference, then you've got the interview, you've got psychometric testing. You know, part of our hiring process is we always give the applicant little tests along the way and see how they act and respond. So we might come away with five, six, seven different sort of data points to help tell a story about this applicant. And you know, the more data points you have, the more reliable your decision-making process can be. You never get it right all the time, but if you can be disciplined in the selection process well then you can make reliably high-quality decisions a lot of the time.

Speaker 2

32:23

Yeah, the other thing that's come to mind for me is you know it's really hiring around attitude more than aptitude. You know, someone who's teachable, who has a growth mindset, is much more important to us than someone who's got a specific skill that we can employ immediately. Um, so they're the types of things that we do with our selection process. It's quite a robust process. We don't cut corners, um yeah, and sometimes we make a mistake, but most of the time what we do, I think we do a pretty good job and choose people who really want to be here and really want to dig in and do great work and I think you mentioned earlier on as well, about the attitude of somebody who works remotely.

Speaker 1

33:09

It's a, it's a certain kind of person, you know, a certain kind of discipline that's involved. How do you, as a manager, keep, keep your. You know, I know there's a certain amount of self-motivation, but how do you sort of galvanize the team, if you see what I mean? How do you sort of get them sort of I don't know, yeah, how do you galvanize your team?

Speaker 2

33:35

Well, we have a very particular philosophy in our business called an outward mindset. It's not our idea, it's from a us organization called arbinger and it's really underpins our culture, um, and that is to be thinking about other people, your work colleagues, your clients, and what are their needs. How can it be more helpful? Um, so we've built our culture around this outward mindset because there's a gravitational pull to being inward, thinking about my needs, my wants first.

Speaker 2

34:07

Absolutely If you can turn that around and be outward in the thinking process and your actions. It can be a real game changer. So we've built a culture around that and that really keeps people engaged in the company working together, looking for ways to always improve teamwork and productivity. You know, if you need to have a hard conversation with a client, you don't back away from it, you're outward. You have this conversation because it's in the client's best interest, and so forth. So that's been a very important part of us sort of building a united, identifiable culture, a place that people want to be.

Speaker 1

34:46

That's amazing. I love the fact that as well, throughout this whole interview, you've mentioned the word, the importance of culture so many times, and I think that is that's the cement, isn't it, that glues the actual team and the business together. That's what keeps everybody going in the same direction, and I think what I've seen is lots of people in your position CEOs or hiring managers, for example they don't necessarily have that culture in place before they start to sort of build their team. And then, if you don't have that culture in place and that framework in place before they start to sort of build, build their team, and then if you don't have that culture in place and those sort of um, that framework in place, you kind of it's like building a house on a sort of like, you know, on sand, exactly yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 2

35:33

I mean I think there's a wonderful expression, that um culture. It's it's strategy for breakfast, yeah yes, yeah, I love that yeah, I mean you can have the best strategy in the world, but if your culture is flawed and people don't like to, aren't working well together, aren't engaged with the vision of the company and so forth, well then you know you're not going to be able to execute your strategy no, it's wonderful, steve's learned so much today.

Speaker 1

35:57

I really have learned so much and I'm you know, I hope everybody was writing all this, this stuff down because it's, it's gold. It's not stuff that you, when you're applying for a job, you're not gonna get this stuff. So I think this is stuff that you can not only apply to remote work, but you can apply to, to um, applying in general and, obviously, if you're hiring manager, you can. You can obviously learn from Steve's building a team of 70 plus people and amalgamating that team worldwide. So, steve, I just wanted to say thank you again. I'll be keeping an eye on what you're doing and, yeah, all the best with perfectpatientscom and vortylercom as well. Thank you, steve. Thank you Ramos. It's nice to meet you. You too, steve. See you later, take care Bye.