RWL065 How to Cultivate Mental Health Resilience in Remote Work w/ Martika Swaby

Mental Health Resilience in Remote Work

Alex Wilson-Campbell

0:00

Hello everybody. It's Alex here from the Remote Work Life podcast and I have a really important guest with me today and I have Martika Swaby. Martika Swaby, who is the founder of Benevolent Health, and Benevolent Health specialise in providing expertise in mental health through consulting, coaching and mentoring so improving emotional well-being through coaching, consulting and mentoring. And I think Martika is very important because, obviously, the conversation around well-being at work has been a growing conversation over the last few years now. But, given our current situation, in the sense that we've been accelerated towards working from home in very unusual circumstances, martika's expertise is very welcome and very much needed. So had to have Martika on here today. So, martika, thank you so much for giving of your time today for the podcast.

Marteka Swaby

1:01

Pleasure. Alex, thank you so much for having me, as, as you said, mental health is such an important topic at the moment. Um, I think, uh, you know, with extended lockdown periods and um, you know, this sort of drastic shift towards, um, remote working has been a big change for some people. I know, um, a lot of the people that listen to your podcast have been remote working for a long time, so much more experienced with that. But I do think, you know, well-being and staying emotionally resilient and healthy is always an important topic and a topic that is often overlooked in all of our lives, so it's great to be here talking to you about that today all of our lives, so it's great to be here talking to you about that today.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

1:50

No, you're very welcome. I just knew that we had to have you on Martika, and towards the middle portion of the show we're going to really be talking about really some key issues, or some key, I suppose. What would you call it? I suppose techniques, maybe that could help you, to help you, your team, if you're in a situation where your team is perhaps not coping as well as they could be. So keep a listen out for that. But what I really want to know, as I always do with the podcast, is Martik. I want to find out a bit more about you first and how you got to where you are today, because you've been practicing for a number of years now.

Marteka Swaby

2:34

Yes, so I've been working in mental health probably the last 15 years doing a range of things. So you know I really started on the front line and working with people with addictions and then working with more complex mental health like personality disorders, bipolar and I am retrained as a psychotherapist nine years ago at Birkbeck University and I studied psychodynamic psychotherapy and organisations and have been working as a consultant and training in corporate environments for the last five years now. So I'm really taking some of my skills online because I think that in order to reach more people, we really need to have access to stuff much more in the kind of what I would call the preventative um end of mental health. So stress, anxiety, depression, things that we all suffer with um. And I think you know when we speak about mental health like we always assume it's like some kind of really serious um issue, like if you google mental health, you see um like people in asylums look really scary and you know it.

Marteka Swaby

3:51

There's still a lot of stigma around mental health, even though you know we are trying to shift that narrative um in the uk. But I think there's something that people feel shameful um or disappointed in themselves if they are struggling with a mental health issue. So I think that's probably where it's good to start in terms of mental health versus mental illness, because I think that actually 75% of the population I mean you've probably all seen the stats one in four people will have a mental health issue and really what they're talking about is mental illness. So the things that I've just identified, but the reality is 75% of us are in the mental health category. So actually, you know, from the perspective of mental health health, we are the people that are healthy and coping and probably have quite a healthy and balanced lifestyle and physically, mentally and socially. But sometimes, you know, we drop into that kind of struggling category because something happens in our life like, uh, bereavement or um, a divorce or um, some issues with our children, or, you know, something happens unexpected, even COVID.

Marteka Swaby

5:11

So, that's come along and kind of disrupted all of our lives and you know the ramifications of this in terms of business and finance is going to impact us mentally and socially, going to impact us for a while, mentally and socially. So it's it's easy for anyone to kind of tip into that um struggling, um category and actually that's where you need to be um emotionally resilient what got you into this?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

5:37

because I mean, obviously you. This is where your passion lies and you've helped a lot of people you know well, not just individuals, but, like you said, you help corporates as well. What? What brought you to on this path?

Marteka Swaby

5:49

so I mean, I, I really have an interest in this. It's something I love people, I love being around people and and I remember when I was like 16, 17, just left school, started working in a bank and thinking, oh my god, I'm going to be doing this till I'm 60. And I need to do something that I love and like I went to study counselling and I remember being like the youngest in the class and thinking nobody's going to take me seriously, you know, in my, in my early 20s, and so I really went out in the field and got a lot of experience and I was talking about, you know, earlier. I was talking about some of the stuff that I'd done in terms of frontline and really seeing, like, different walks of life and different people in terms of mental health and mental health issues. And it was later that I came into doing consultancy and working, you know, in large NHS programmes to change how we deliver health to like health populations and, more recently, corporate. So my journey has been one, I guess, of grassroots and, you know, working at the front line, really working with people.

Marteka Swaby

7:05

But my heart is to help people and I remember, and when I was working in the NHS as a psychotherapist and um. You know, one of my patients came in the room and he told me he'd been on a waiting list for like 18 months. Oh, my god, thank you know, because this was someone that had a lot of issues, really needed therapy, had been through their gp, been to kind of a what we call like a cbt iap type program. You know where you get six weeks telephone support, yes, and or you know a counselor and face-to-face but very time limited. And you know he had a lot of issues that he really wanted to get underneath and were keeping him stuck in life. And I was like, you know, wow, the waiting lists are so long in some areas for some people and so, actually, how can we get this to people quicker?

Marteka Swaby

7:57

And I believe that it starts from a preventative perspective and because, actually, you know, if we don't um have an awareness around um mental health and staying resilient, then it's much easier to fall into those kind of struggling and unwell categories. And unfortunately, in 2018, one of um my long-term um friends who we've been to school with, grew up with he um really struggled with his mental health and had gone to get help, wasn't successful and unfortunately he killed himself, and there's so many people you know that are struggling, suffering in silence, like something like 800,000 people every year commit suicide and you know suicide is not necessary, they are avoidable deaths. So you know, we really need to be more open and honest about this stuff and be able to feel comfortable to have these conversations. So really that's why I'm on a mission to kind of change the narrative on mental health and make it a lot more accessible for just everyday people it a lot more accessible and for just everyday people.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

9:08

And with that mission uh, thank you for that, marty I think that's great because with that mission, do you think that the people are more freely and openly having the conversations now than they were? Are you seeing any sort of like changes, because now you deal with individuals as well as corporates are you seeing a bit more freedom and, um, a bit more freedom and a bit more, are some of the stigmas being broken or are they still in place?

Understanding Mental Health and Wellness

Marteka Swaby

9:29

Yeah, I mean I think that we've come a long way. You know, I think if you look at the kind of history, particularly in Britain, I think that you know, sort of 50 years ago we had those old school asylums. I mean some people would say that they still exist. When you look at kind of more serious mental health issues and you know where people are in, you know under the Mental Health Act and are restrained and that treatment is still kind of similar to the old asylum model model, I think there is a recognition in what I would call clinical, medicalised world that actually mental health isn't always about medication and, you know, treatment in a kind of medicalised model. I think there's a lot more openness and we're a lot more aware now of, actually, you know, our nutrition impacts our moods and our mental health and exercise does and all of these alternative holistic approaches. So mindfulness has become much more popular in this day and age and you know yoga and I think people are much more open to kind of spirituality, and I'm not just talking about, you know, organized religion, even though that has massive impacts on on mental health and community, and I'm talking also about art, music, drama and being able to express yourself creatively. I think there's, you know, much more openness to recognize these things actually impact how we feel and connect as human beings. So I think we have moved on.

Marteka Swaby

11:06

But when you look at um, you know, if you look at kind of traditional corporate models in terms of um treatment to mental health, if you look at the best EAP programs so the employee and support assistance programs actually the uptake of those is usually around seven percent. In a really good one, you you might get it up to sort of 10 11 percent. So, and when you um a farmer did a report, um in 2018 around the state of of play, um with mental health across the nation and it was something like 11 percent of people would tell their line manager if they were struggling with a mental health issue. And then you look at the stats on the back of that. So you know, absenteeism and reasons people are off sick and actually musculoskeletal issues is kind of the number one issue and you know, when we look at this, actually how much is stress?

Marteka Swaby

12:05

How much stress is impacted on those kinds of injuries like back pain and other musculoskeletal illnesses. So they're all interlinked and actually how do we start to unpick those and understand what it really is. But the reality is most of us wouldn't be comfortable phoning up our boss and saying you know, I'm really stressed today. I can't come into work. It's still seen as a bit of a yes, cop out or an excuse that that you're making and some people will always use you know, a headache on a, on a on a Friday afternoon or you know whatever it is to um to make excuses.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

12:44

but some people are actually really really genuine and you know how can we make um those kinds of conversations and discussions um more acceptable and reduce that stigma yeah, and I think that's that's a good segue, isn't it, into the, the conversation that we want to have really, which is around how we can, um, uh, help managers. I guess um in a way to I I suppose, I don't know, is it identify those things in their teams or um, because, really well, first of all, foremost, that you mentioned at the top, the, the differences between um, mental health and mental illness. Should we just explore that for a little bit before we, before we dive into that, the discussion about how we can help, how, basically, you could help managers, or how managers can help their teams. What are those differences between um mental health and and mental illness? Because you said that 70, was it? 75 percent of us fall into that mental health category. Mental illness, because you said that 70, was it 75% of us fall into that mental health category.

Marteka Swaby

13:48

Yeah, so I think like typically we look at mental health and, like I said, we think about mental health as mental illness. So you know, we have this kind of stigma around the word mental health and actually I see mental health and what I teach in the programmes that I offer is actually mental health around what I call mental fitness. So sleep, nutrition, fitness and stress, anxiety and all those kinds of kind of I would call lower level mental health issues that we can all tip into the struggling or unwell side. But actually when we think about mental health, often we think about mental illness and mental illness being, you know, something that's more formally diagnosed and recognized like bipolar disorder or personality disorder or you know, suicide and self-harm and the more serious end of the spectrum. And I'm not saying that you know those things aren't important and we shouldn't have an awareness of them.

Marteka Swaby

14:58

But actually I think from a preventative perspective and to stop people falling into the more serious um mental illness category and more people have the kind of um, what I would call stress, anxiety, depression, the kind of lower level end of the spectrum, and actually if we could increase the awareness of how to stay mentally fit and healthy there and recognize when, um, you know you're perhaps working under a bit too much pressure and actually we can, we can really have an impact on that, whereas I think once you tip into being unwell and mental illness, the trajectory or recovery is is much is much longer.

Marteka Swaby

15:47

Is is much, um is much longer. So it's you know, I think, to have the most impact and we definitely need to focus on the, the healthy, coping end of the spectrum, the 75 percent as opposed to um mental illness. And if you like reading papers and you're interested in that sort of stuff, keys and hubbert have got a really good paper on that around the mental health spectrum and they talk a lot about kind of how to you know the messaging around healthy and balanced lifestyle for physical, mental and social well-being.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

16:19

I'll have to refer to that, I think, in the show notes, because I think I'm sure there will be people out there who are interested in this, whether from the point of view of being a manager or being in that situation themselves. I think it's important that we link to that, so I'll I'll get the link from you, um, at the end of the show so we can include that.

Marteka Swaby

16:33

Sorry, go ahead, martika the important thing is and, and that what I kind of want to bring home is actually mental health. We all have mental health, you know, we, we all have it, and it's not something that's out there or affects somebody else. We all have mental health.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

16:49

No, I can imagine, and I think it's probably like you said, that 75% is a big number and I'm sure there are people who have issues that perhaps they don't recognise in themselves or probably they don't recognize in other people who are on on their team, and they just soldier on and I suppose that's the whole. You know the british mentality, which I suppose has changed a bit, like having that stiff upper lip and just sort of really digging in there and getting on with certain things, you know, but it doesn't always things just get worse, don't they?

Marteka Swaby

17:23

yeah, I mean, I think if you're a home worker as well or remote working, used to working kind of and by yourself and on your own initiative, I think you perhaps have more of a valency to just get on with stuff, because actually that's why you're um most of the time. Um, working remotely is because you are a kind of go-getter and can, you know, get on with things and don't necessarily need that um environment where you're kind of you know, in a structured environment where you're given tasks and told what to do, that you can, you know you can think quite easily independently. And I think one of the challenges are when you work remotely or independently actually is a susceptibility to kind of isolation or loneliness and actually connection community is one of the biggest things people look for in terms of improving their mental health. They want a community that they can connect with and and that provides support. I mean, in my years of working in this field and you know where you see people recover and get better and really change their lives are people that are connected into something beyond the kind of treatment, if you like, or the mental health kind of medicalised pathway in terms of medication and go to the doctor, psychiatrist therapist for treatment. It needs to be much broader than that and it really needs to be integrated into our, you know, into our community and to our social networks. So I think there's probably a susceptibility to not ask for help if you're struggling.

Marteka Swaby

19:07

And also if you're a manager managing remote workers, it's really hard sometimes to notice changes in your team or notice those early warning signs. So you know, if a person's behaviour changes and they have decreased productivity or performance or a low morale, and I think it's much harder to to recognize that when you're not in the same space with someone seeing them every day and because there's not that connection. And so I guess, as managers, as remote workers, how do you create those communities, those connections with your staff, with each other, to have that? I know personally, I mean, I homework a lot and one of the things that I'm much more proactive with, as you know, a business owner is, you know, having networks and being accountable to a network, a community, a mentor. So I always have a mentor. I find that really helps me to stay accountable and focused and where I can be really open and honest, where I can be really open and honest and also a community of other like-minded people that are in a similar situation. You can just reach out to them and, you know, have a meet up.

Marteka Swaby

20:30

I know, like with lockdown, that's changing that and and also like, for me, I'm part of a like a shared working space where I go and work and I see you know regular people, but I've really had to make an effort since I transitioned to kind of working at home in the last five years I've really had to make an effort in terms of, you know, my, my network kind of outside of of work and and and maintaining that network and putting more of an effort into, you know, having regular meetups with, with colleagues, with friends, with um other professionals, and you know all my routines that go around that.

Marteka Swaby

21:09

So, like my gym um workouts, you know like I've got a group of friends from from the gym that you know I see regularly. Obviously now with um lockdown we um are not able to do that, but you know before that and and all you know the things that you enjoy and that you make sure you schedule in those those activities that you like um and enjoy. So, um, a lot of that's been done on zoom now and I know people are having zoom fatigue and but yeah, I mean once we get back to um the new normal or going out again, it's like how do you have those connections um outside of of your, um, you know, being kind of remote working and potentially by yourself, uh, all day or just with your family?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

22:02

and going back to what you said about warning signs, um, because, like you said, there's little, there's not as much contact when you're working remotely. You don't have those spontaneous interactions where you can observe somebody's body language in the same way that you would, as if they were right in front of you. Yeah, how do you then? How do you then sort of begin to? I know you mentioned productivity levels, but how do you spot those warning signs? What are the symptoms that you could potentially look out for? I don't know is, are there any physical, or are they? How do they sort of show themselves?

Marteka Swaby

22:38

so I I think it's really one of the things that people ask me all the time is um around you know how to have conversations um about, about mental health. How do you bring it up, how do you have these discussions and what do you say? People ask all the time what do you say? And and the reality is that you can't really script this. That's the truth. So anyone that tells you you can they're not telling you the truth. But what I want you to think about is a frame and um I want you to think about a frame in terms of the cycle of change, um and the idea that actually, people um are either not aware that they need to change and have no um idea of change, change and what we call that pre-contemplative or they do have an awareness and they want to take some kind of action, but they're not sure yet, or they're not sure how to do it, or they might be taking an action, but actually, if someone's taking an action and doing something, then I'd say that they're pretty kind of well-equipped and doing something about their issues, and so what you have to listen out for is actually what we call like change, talk, conversations and the motivation that people express and their commitment to change can really be heard in what they say. And this just doesn't apply to mental health. This, you know, can apply to any manager and, you know, managing a team, and what I would say was really listen out for those kinds of um change talk and statements, because people that are contemplating or thinking about change will have a desire and a reason and a need to do something and they will be expressing that in the way that they talk and they'll be taking action or thinking about taking action. So they'll be talking about their commitment and activation to change.

Marteka Swaby

24:40

But those that aren't and aren't aware, I think we have to be much more proactive and that's why I think it's really important to have preventative mental health.

Building Mental Fitness and Resilience

Marteka Swaby

24:50

That you know you, just as a norm, you have certain things on the agenda, so it could be that you know one month you're talking about sleep hygiene and another month you could be that you know one month you're talking about sleep hygiene and another month you could be talking about fitness, another month about stress and actually being proactively, bringing up these conversations and asking people. You know how they're feeling, what's going on for them and really kind of listening to what they're saying back, listening and to to what what they're saying back. So I think it's really important to be able to listen and I think we'll get into some of the listening stuff in a in a bit but to be able to listen to, to what people are saying, to to kind of cue um where they are in terms of what's going on for them, because you don't have that daily contact and you don't have those opportunistic chats. You know in front of the water fountain or in the kitchen making a coffee, or you know when you're passing in the corridor.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

25:48

So it's been much more intentional, um about those check-ins and and and how you use them and in terms of those check-ins, I think, especially now, where we're just like, forced to be on you know Zoom all the time. I say we're forced, but more and more people, who perhaps aren't used to these kinds of video conversations, are becoming, like you mentioned, having the fatigue as a result of these conversations. As a result of these conversations, how do we, how do we then make sure we strike a balance between, you know, having these change talk conversations, so that the person on the other end of the line doesn't then experience that sort of um, that sort of scenario?

Marteka Swaby

26:33

yeah, I really encourage you to up upscale as a, as a manager, and I think that, um, I think kind of like basic and having these um types of conversations is going to be part of kind of your day-to-day conversations.

Marteka Swaby

26:51

I don't think that you necessarily have to um, you know, plan a special meeting around this. It can be just in what you do day-to-day um, and I do think one of the competencies of leaders, of managers, going forward, is going to be able to support and build the emotional resilience of themselves and their teams, because they're going to need it to be productive. Have healthy, resilient teams and teams that feel comfortable, or individuals that feel comfortable to kind of hold their hand up and say I'm really struggling today or I'm struggling this week, and you know, to have those kind of very open and transparent conversations. And we can only start to have those open and transparent conversations if, you know, we have leaders who are going to acknowledge that and open up those kinds of conversations. And some people won't want to talk about it, and that's fine.

Marteka Swaby

27:47

And I'm not saying that you know you have to force it, absolutely not. And but I do think it's giving people opportunity. I like that saying that you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink, but you can make them thirsty and and that's our job, our job as leaders, as managers, is to to make people thirsty. So you know, if they decide to take you up on it and you know that's great if they don't, they know that that boundary's there. So it's all about how we position this and how we integrate and embed it as part of our everyday conversations.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

28:26

So what you're saying, it's an ongoing thing that doesn't necessarily have to be a structured thing. It's something that a manager should have as part of their skill set, or at least develop as part of their skill set, so that they can build that resilience their own personal resilience as well as their own team's um resilience as well, and where that resilience is concerned, I mean, what's I'm trying to think of the sorts of things that I do to build my own resilience? I don't know if if I do those things consciously or not. Um, but are there any sort of specific things at all, or am I overthinking this now?

Marteka Swaby

29:01

to build your own resilience yeah, or my team for that, for that matter yeah, I think that, um, I think that, um, mental fitness, if you like, um is centered around kind of probably five key things, like your stress level and being aware of kind of where that is. You know your nutrition, you know, are you eating the right food? Because our food impacts our moods. That's the reality of it. And you know, are we sleeping enough? Because sleep is a huge um, it has a huge impact on our, on our resilience. And then, um, what I would call within the nutrition is is fitness as well, exercise and movement. I'm not talking about, you know, going to join a crossfit gym and be like hardcore. You know, even just getting out for a walk outside in the fresh air, that impacts our sleep, that impacts our, our fitness. You know, are we moving enough? Because I think that's another thing about remote working. I mean, sometimes I'll look at my step count and I'd be like, oh, my god, I've been like literally sitting at my desk all day.

Marteka Swaby

30:05

I haven't moved yeah and you know, proactively going out for a walk or even going out in the garden and I mean we were having a conversation earlier about having a stand-up desk and you know, standing for some of the day or walking around the room when we're talking, that we don't have to be sat down at a desk. And and the last thing I would say on mental fitness is around community and connection and really building, you know, deep connections with, with, with other people, so building those relationships no, that's brilliant and I think it's important, isn't it?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

30:41

Because mental fitness, I suppose, as you put, it, is not just about, like you said, just what's in your mind, but it's about getting all those physical, get your body physiologically right as well, isn't it? As well as the you know the other things that we mentioned or that you mentioned before, and there's this thing you mentioned as well, about again a technique that manages you. Is it around reflective, listening you?

Marteka Swaby

31:07

said something. I think one of the things that I wanted to talk to your listeners today about was around motivational interviewing. Motivational interviewing so in our um, we run a half day workshop on this and it's condensed down into um. Some of the things that I've been talking to you about today are part of our mental health awareness training, which, um I believe that you will post um at the end of the show. So, yes, access to that if they're more interested in these things. And we run like a monthly um coaching group. So people that want to learn more about these different mental fitness areas and you know, we teach um each month on a on a specific topic and not so people can, you know, make these huge lifestyle changes. Like I said, it's not about going to join the crossfit gym and be training like five times a week and, you know, like making sure you've got all your meals prepped and having five meals a day.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

32:06

We're not you know that's like.

Building Collaborative Conversations for Motivation

Marteka Swaby

32:07

You know there's nothing wrong with that, but that's for a certain group of people. What, what we teach and what we think about is how you can make this part of what you do and embed it into your kind of everyday, your lifestyle, lifestyle. So these advanced listening techniques and motivational interviewing again, it's about having an awareness of this technique and embedding it into your routine. And I think the point of these advanced listening techniques is around having a collaborative conversation actually and strengthening people's intrinsic motivation and commitment. So what motivates you inside and really as a leader, as a manager, as an individual, if you can tap into you know what motivates you intrinsically inside, you know it's much easier to have better conversations with people and much more smoother collaborations in terms of getting things done and getting the best out of people. And the spirit of motivational interviewing is really about, you know, really like the idea that you're not the expert and that actually is a collaboration. So you know it's trying to get a mutual understanding and just understanding that person from their narrative and what they need, as opposed to your own kind of agenda. Because I think as managers I mean I've managed large teams before and much smaller teams and I've managed teams from a as a line manager, but also in a way where you have to influence people that you don't necessarily have You're not their direct line manager and it's so important to understand you know what's important to them because actually it helps you to frame um. You know what your what, what it is that you're um get wanting them or asking them to do if you can frame it from from their narrative and not your own narrative, and so there's something about drawing out from that person, as opposed to imposing um, your views on them, and really understanding you know what. What about what, what, what is it? What is the change that's needed to happen here? What you know, what is it that you are trying to achieve um through this conversation and with that person, and really like getting them to think about it from an autonomous perspective and not your authority.

Marteka Swaby

34:42

So I think you know, if you are remote working and you are influencing and working with, especially if you're working with more senior teams who you know have a lot more autonomy, this is a really helpful technique to start to have some of those change or even complex conversations that often we like to skirt around or not quite um address and I think mental health is one of those, because people always are worried about saying the wrong thing and that they're gonna, you know, put their foot in it and and offend or upset people.

Marteka Swaby

35:19

So I think it's quite a delicate um conversations, but I'm just going to give you four basic um skills that you can use and that is called oars, o-a-r-s, and really oars consists of open-ended questions, affirmations so appreciatingating people and, you know, coming from an encouraging perspective. Reflective listening so being able to paraphrase and rephrase what people have said. And then summarising, just to make sure that you understand what people are saying. And if you can fit oars into conversations, you will find you have much more productive and better conversations. When it comes to any kind of conversation not just mental health, but any kind of conversation because it helps people to feel heard and that you're actually really listening to them, and it's one of the ways that you can have a very empathetic and connected conversation could you get?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

36:25

I mean, I don't know if it's possible, uh, in this setting, could you perhaps just like give a little example, maybe, of how a conversation might go? I don't know, is it possible to do that now?

Marteka Swaby

36:34

I don't know, so between me and you yeah, why not yeah? Okay, so, um, tell me, um, okay, so what's the scenario?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

36:46

then maybe talk to me about something that's that that you're struggling with at the moment a challenge so, yeah, um my kids, um I'm working from home and um I'm also my kids teacher, so I'm trying to balance my my work with my homeschooling basically.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

37:05

Okay, so how are you managing that now, then yeah, so it did start off a little bit tricky, because I wasn't really sure if I was doing the right thing where my teaching was concerned, and then it kind of sort of filtered into my work, so I was losing time with my daily work.

Marteka Swaby

37:23

So how would you like that to be different? What's the balance that you're seeking?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

37:34

that you're seeking. Well, apart from going back to them going back to school, I suppose, I want to um be able to to, I suppose, understand that my kids are getting everything that they need out of the day, but at the same time, being as productive as I possibly can under the circumstances.

Marteka Swaby

37:46

I mean what? What's productive for you? What would that look like?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

37:49

I suppose um what I normally do is just have like a checklist of things that I need to get done in the day, like I suppose, um, what I normally do is just have like a checklist of things that I need to get done in the day, and I suppose a couple of weeks ago I wasn't really getting those things done, so I suppose now it is improving, so I'm.

Effective Homeschooling Strategies for Enjoyment

Marteka Swaby

38:02

Productivity for me is like crossing those things off the list and getting them done so it sounds like you're doing a good job, ben, like you are getting some things done, but there's room for improvement yeah, that's, I mean I, that's how I'd sum it up as well.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

38:17

I'm much better now when it comes to condensing their learning into, say like three hours, where it used to be six hours, or like four, four to six hours. I'm condensing it down now, so I'm now sort of striking a nice balance between the work and the, the actual, um, school work for them. So it is getting better, yeah and are they enjoying it more?

Marteka Swaby

38:39

do they feel?

Alex Wilson-Campbell

38:41

yeah, enjoying it in inverted commas. Yes, they're enjoying it. They're getting it done. Yeah it's much better now. It's less. It's less stressful, because it used to be quite stressful and then that stress would filter out into them and then they wouldn't want to do the work. So it's now becoming a bit more sort of cooperative, shall we say, and they're enjoying it's a bit more. I'm trying to inject a bit of fun into it too.

Marteka Swaby

39:04

So it sounds like it sounds like you are actually managing this much better and that you do have strategies in place Perhaps it's worth thinking about. Maybe they're not perfect and that they're perhaps, uh, got room to. You've got room to improve and grow, and but you sound like you're trying new things and seeing how, how that works yeah, and I am trying new things.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

39:31

I'm always, I suppose, yeah, I suppose you have to, especially I've got a six-year-old. So if I, I suppose if I was doing the same thing every day, she'd, she'd really quickly get quite bored. So, yeah, I'll keep trying new things, just to see what works, I guess. And then, um, like I said, the work is improving, so it's, it's becoming less of a worry now I think.

Marteka Swaby

39:52

I think it's um. You know, when we, when we try new things, that we have to um often cut ourselves a bit of slack in terms of that process, um of transitioning into the new and the new way of of doing things. But I, I think that you um, I think that you have a framework in place that's that's that's serving you well. It's not a perfect one.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

40:17

No.

Marteka Swaby

40:17

And it seems that you are much more productive and your children are getting homeschooled. I guess I wonder what your idea of productive is, though for them? Though for them, because I think that some parents perhaps are considering that they need to kind of give them the level of teaching that they had when they were at school, and actually maybe the standard is being good enough. I don't know.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

40:43

Yeah, and I've come to realise that, I suppose at the beginning, again on reflection, I used to want to try as hard as possible to follow the same sort of routine that they would at school, but I've come to learn that, like you said, it's about them, I suppose, enjoying it. So it is getting to that point now where they're starting to enjoy it a bit more, and it's not as intense as it was before. It's not as intense as it was before and, um, I think the, the, I suppose the, I suppose the outcomes for them really is just that enjoyment, I guess so yeah, it is getting better.

Marteka Swaby

41:22

Have have we um demonstrated yeah, I think that's.

Promoting Mental Health Awareness and Resilience

Alex Wilson-Campbell

41:24

That's pretty good. It is because, um, I um, I think that you know, anybody who's listening to this I hope will any manager listening to this will be able to hear how you are just sort of giving me the sort of the platform to sort of say what I've been doing, how I've been doing it, and, at the same time, suggesting things rather than trying to impose things on me, you know. So it's, I think that was pretty, pretty useful for me, let alone, hopefully, anybody out there listening. So, thank you.

Marteka Swaby

41:56

I think I started using some of the more advanced techniques um, in. In that, in terms of um, I was, I was, I was consciously developing the discrepancy. Because I think um, which is a technique of motivational interviewing, because I think, which is a technique of motivational interviewing, because I think where you started was that you were basically failing as a parent and you know, from a productivity perspective. And actually you then kind of went on to say well, actually I've been trying different things and it's been getting better over the weeks and it's not perfect, but know it is improving.

Marteka Swaby

42:32

And I think sometimes you know, when we're going along a change journey, we we're so focused on the end result that we don't see all the incremental progress that we make that's true and and sometimes it's really good to kind of sound that out and to be able to express empathy to someone and really kind of go, actually you are doing really well like you have implemented a lot of things like where is it that you you're expecting to be? Because I think sometimes people's expectations and where they actually are, um, you know is is very different, and so it's been able to celebrate that that person's small and incremental steps and and encourage them to to carry on and see that you know that actually it's not as terrible as they, as they think, um in in their minds.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

43:21

So so true because even a couple of weeks ago I what I'd say is what I was thinking about was, rather than incremental steps, I was thinking about how are they going to be when they go back to school because of all this this teaching I've been doing with them, not not how I've been doing step by step, but it was like so yeah, that is so true and um, good, it's great, it's great. So if anybody's listening to this I think well, I'm not, I'm sure people are listening to this then you know, it's about the little steps in between that lead you to what the end result is, rather than just sort of putting all that pressure on yourself just to, you know, to get that end result, rather than just sort of focusing on the steps in between. So, no, my ticket, thank you.

Marteka Swaby

44:04

Done is better than perfect. I think that we often strive for the finished product or the perfection, and actually, you know, it's a process, isn't it? And we have to be okay with being good enough, and sometimes being good enough is the best. So, yeah, well done for being, for having a full-time job.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

44:28

Oh my gosh, it hasn't been easy.

Marteka Swaby

44:31

Everyone's going to have a new appreciation of teachers, I think.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

44:34

Tell me about it. Tell me about it. So I mean just to end up. What's things looking like on the horizon for benevolent health? What are your plans for the foreseeable future?

Marteka Swaby

44:46

Mental Health Awareness Week's coming up this month, 18th to the 24th of May We've got a mental fitness summit and so we have um done a load of um. We've had a load of conversations with different people in different industries um around, but, you know, really building resilience. So we've been looking at homeschooling was a big topic and got some excellent resources in there and we did some stuff with you on remote working and we've got a load of mental fitness talks in there. It's totally free to register and to look at the content If you want to keep the content, as charged for an access password and it has a stress program in there. So, and that will go out on mental health awareness week and I can send you the links if people want to register before then, and so we are also um.

Marteka Swaby

45:43

We've also got the coaching program for people that want to um learn more around um mental health awareness and building up their awareness in the workplace, or that they want to do something in their community in terms of you know, if you're into, if you've got expertise in sleep or stress, or holistic, like a yoga teacher, mindfulness, or we're looking to work with other experts who are interested in improving their knowledge around mental health.

Marteka Swaby

46:20

So we've been launching a peer mentoring platform in June and we always have our podcast, better Mental Health, each month. We usually focus on a topic like this month We've been looking at sleep and because I think that's been a big issue for people through the pandemic, and so we're always um interested in having those um mental health conversations. We just talk to everyday people um and and uh really understand better um around mental health. So that's the things that we've got coming up over the next few months. But if you um, I'll send the slides that I've talked um from around the conversation today, and if you um register um for a free training, I can um add you to our newsletter and then you'll get all of the updates around stuff that's going on um month to month within and benevolent health so you're not busy, then martika not busy not busy not busy in the slightest I think mental health is um really needed at the moment.

Marteka Swaby

47:30

I mean, um certainly a lot of the reading that I've been doing around this is that they're predicting kind of post lockdown.

Marteka Swaby

47:38

Six to nine months time there'll be a kind of a rocket in mental health issues. So I think it's really important to have good content, good support, early. I think I totally believe in prevention. I've done this for years and you know I mean I talked to you earlier about suicide, which is obviously the really extreme end of this, but, and you know, where we invest in good prevention programs, the suicide rate is a lot lower. And so we we know this stuff works. We know if people have the skills and the know-how before something happens, that they actually navigate it much better and much quicker. And, and you know organizations are really missing a trick. You know if they um, you know if they've got people off work sick long term, and you know if you can build their emotional resilience, they will come back to work much quicker and healthier. And so this stuff works. So I think it's really important to raise the awareness of it.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

48:42

And that is certainly why I wanted to have you on here today. I'm just looking for Benevolent Health website as well, so I'm going to put that in the show notes too. But I wanted to thank you, martika, for speaking with us today, and we'll put a link, as I said, in terms of the programs. We'll also put a link to your website as well in terms of mental health week, and we'll be keeping an eye on what you're doing.

Marteka Swaby

49:05

Um, I mean if anyone, if this has touched anyone personally and anybody's struggling individually and you know they've not been able to speak to anyone and I'm really happy to do like a free consultation and and I will give you a link to my um, my diary for a concert for free consultations, like 15 minutes just to talk about any individual issues, if something's popped up that we've talked about, that really kind of resonates and impacts people so and I'm more than happy to do that.

Marteka Swaby

49:39

But yeah thank you so much for having me on. I really feel privileged to talk to your audience and I hope that you've enjoyed it. I hope that this is stuff that you're able to implement absolutely and it makes a difference to you and your teams.

Alex Wilson-Campbell

49:53

Most importantly I think that's what it's all about, um. So it's benevolent health, benevolent health. Dot co, dot uk, martika swaybee. Thanks so much, martika.