The professional landscape is constantly evolving, and for many, the pandemic accelerated this change. Pilar Orti’s journey to remote work (which began way before the pandemic) is a testament to adaptability and foresight.
As an actress turned remote work innovator and podcasting forerunner, her story is not just fascinating—it’s educational. Pilar’s transition from acting to leading Virtual Not Distant, a company that helps teams adapt to remote work, is a narrative that resonates with the current global work environment.
Today’s episode is a masterclass in embracing change and juggling professional and business commitments with the demands of caring for family.
The excitement of a multinational life is relatable to anyone who’s found themselves at the crossroads of personal and professional commitments. You’ll hear firsthand how embracing virtual collaboration and co-working can lead to unexpected opportunities and why the adage of ‘location, location, location’ may no longer hold true for today’s businesses.
You can find out more about Pilar via the following links:
Virtual Not Distant
Pilar’s LinkedIn page
Looking for Remote Work?
Click here remoteworklife.io to access a private beta list of remote jobs in sales, marketing, and strategy — plus get podcasts, real-world tips and business insights from founders, CEOs, and remote leaders. subscribe to my free newsletter
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Transitioning to Remote Work and Podcasting
Alex
0:01
Hey
everybody
.
It's
Alex
once
again
from
the
remote
work
life
podcast
,
and
I
have
one
of
my
podcasting
heroes
with
me
today
,
pilar
Ooty
.
Pilar
is
a
director
of
virtual
,
not
distant
.
They
help
managers
and
teams
adapt
to
a
new
way
of
working
,
and
I've
had
Pilar
as
a
guest
on
the
podcast
before
.
As
I
said
,
she's
a
hero
of
mine
in
terms
of
podcasting
space
,
one
of
the
first
podcasts
I
ever
started
to
listen
to
,
so
I
will
put
the
details
in
the
show
notes
for
you
to
listen
to
as
well
.
But
apart
from
that
,
pilar
is
embedded
in
the
world
of
remote
work
.
She's
a
remote
work
expert
,
go
to
thought
leader
in
the
area
of
remote
work
,
especially
when
it
comes
to
helping
teams
,
helping
managers
.
So
,
pilar
,
I
want
to
thank
you
once
again
for
coming
back
to
the
remote
work
life
podcast
.
Pilar Orti
0:58
Thank
you
for
being
here
well
,
I'm
delighted
to
be
here
,
always
good
to
speak
to
you
and
the
second
time
is
so
well
.
I'm
really
looking
forward
to
see
what
we
talk
about
today
me
too
.
Alex
1:07
Me
too
,
and
I
think
last
time
we
spoke
,
we
were
talking
more
about
teams
.
You're
giving
advice
in
terms
of
how
teams
,
especially
the
teams
that
were
new
to
remote
work
,
could
transition
and
adapt
to
the
world
of
remote
work
,
and
that's
what
you
want
about
.
But
I
wanted
to
,
today
,
find
out
more
about
you
and
what
inspired
you
to
be
where
you
are
today
,
and
I
just
wondered
you
know
,
first
and
foremost
,
pilar
,
could
you
just
tell
the
audience
about
yourself
?
And
you
know
where
are
you
in
the
world
now
as
well
?
Pilar Orti
1:42
well
,
physically
I'm
in
London
,
so
that's
good
because
that's
that's
my
base
and
I
think
that's
important
because
I'm
someone
that
has
transitioned
,
so
the
transition
sounds
very
linear
.
That
has
that
still
moves
,
in
a
lot
of
professional
roles
and
in
still
in
different
industries
,
and
I
am
now
in
flux
.
I
am
really
wondering
.
I've
taken
this
year
to
think
about
what's
next
.
So
I'm
still
doing
a
lot
of
what
I
would
been
doing
for
the
last
five
or
six
years
,
and
20
years
actually
,
but
now
I'm
starting
to
wonder
where
am
I
next
?
So
what
I've
been
doing
my
professional
life
I
trained
as
an
actress
,
run
a
theater
company
that
is
like
previous
life
and
worked
as
a
voiceover
artist
,
which
has
still
do
some
voiceover
work
.
Pilar Orti
2:32
But
what
I've
been
doing
over
the
last
,
say
,
10
years
is
looking
at
corporate
training
and
training
in
organizations
.
I
started
in
leadership
training
around
the
2010s
or
something
and
I
started
to
see
that
more
and
more
organizations
were
using
technology
to
run
their
teams
.
So
basically
,
I
could
see
more
virtual
teams
etc
.
So
I
started
to
look
into
that
space
and
I
thought
it
was
a
very
interesting
space
because
it
needed
a
lot
of
deliberate
action
.
It
needed
teams
and
managers
to
really
think
about
how
they
wanted
to
work
together
and
I
thought
that
is
very
attractive
and
a
lot
of
people
making
a
transition
to
using
more
remote
work
.
I
thought
that's
great
.
We
can
use
it
as
a
tool
to
stop
and
think
and
design
new
ways
of
working
.
Pilar Orti
3:17
And
then
the
pandemic
came
and
lots
of
people
had
to
adopt
remote
work
without
thinking
,
without
designing
new
ways
of
working
,
and
those
years
were
interesting
,
I'm
sure
,
for
you
as
well
,
for
a
lot
of
people
in
the
remote
space
to
just
see
stuff
being
adopted
in
whatever
way
was
possible
.
It
changed
how
I
approach
the
work
.
It
really
I
was
like
whoa
,
what
am
I
doing
here
?
You
know
,
turning
to
people
in
the
middle
of
a
pandemic
about
visible
teamwork
,
which
is
my
thing
,
and
so
it
was
an
interesting
time
and
I
podcast
a
lot
,
which
because
I
love
talking
and
because
I
love
having
conversations
about
the
work
.
Pilar Orti
3:58
So
the
show
that
you
listen
to
,
a
21st
century
work
life
,
is
my
longest
running
show
and
it
really
started
because
I
wanted
to
have
conversations
with
people
who
were
doing
things
.
It
was
more
broadly
,
in
the
21st
century
,
what
work
looked
like
,
and
as
I
saw
that
there
was
more
remote
work
being
adopted
,
I
thought
,
well
,
actually
,
yeah
,
I
could
fill
a
whole
podcast
with
just
this
.
So
it's
been
really
great
and
from
that
I
also
have
a
podcast
now
about
podcasting
.
I
have
a
podcast
about
food
with
a
friend
of
mine
in
Spanish
.
I
have
a
management
cafe
still
running
now
with
a
co-host
,
so
podcasting
there's
something
and
that's
quite
interesting
as
well
.
Alex
4:40
So
yeah
,
very
mixed
background
,
but
all
over
the
place
but
I
mean
I
can
see
all
of
the
different
.
Alex
4:48
You
know
you
mentioned
linear
,
but
it's
.
There's
very
much
a
relationship
between
what
you've
done
in
the
past
in
terms
of
the
theatre
based
work
and
the
creative
things
that
you're
doing
or
we're
doing
AOL
,
time
Warner
,
forbidden
theatre
company
to
the
things
that
you're
doing
now
.
There's
definitely
a
correlation
,
and
I
think
so
you're
doing
voiceover
work
as
well
and
obviously
voiceover
is
very
much
related
to
the
audio
landscape
that
you're
in
now
and
you've
got
three
did
you
say
three
podcasts
all
in
one
go
.
Pilar Orti
5:25
I
am
involved
with
five
plus
one
,
I
think
,
plus
one
that
I
do
a
co-host
for
someone
else
.
Alex
5:32
Yes
,
I
think
and
you've
got
the
adventures
in
podcasting
as
well
.
You
achieve
podcaster
there
as
well
.
Yeah
,
you're
helping
coaches
,
facilitators
and
trainers
.
Gosh
,
I
just
about
manage
one
podcast
,
do
you
?
Pilar Orti
5:46
well
,
that
is
an
issue
.
Actually
it
is
.
I
mean
adventures
in
podcasting
.
I
wanted
to
turn
that
into
some
kind
of
business
,
doing
exactly
what
you
said
,
using
helping
,
specifically
,
coaches
and
facilitators
,
because
those
were
there
still
are
my
peers
I
haven't
.
I
played
with
it
for
a
bit
and
then
I
stopped
and
it's
now
lingering
there
.
I'm
thinking
what
can
I
do
in
the
world
of
podcasting
that
is
useful
and
that
people
will
pay
me
for
?
So
that's
what
I
love
podcasting
.
Alex
6:17
I
do
as
well
,
I
think
,
I
know
,
for
the
same
reasons
as
you
.
I
mean
,
for
me
,
I
it
was
for
me
was
about
trying
to
engage
people
in
the
conversation
,
but
also
trying
to
give
them
value
as
well
,
at
the
same
time
as
talking
to
them
and
reaching
out
to
people
.
I
was
working
remotely
,
but
I
I
was
funny
quite
difficult
myself
to
network
,
so
I
thought
how
can
I
do
that
,
you
know
,
with
people
across
the
world
and
it
was
accidental
,
to
be
honest
with
you
,
I
think
,
but
it
kind
of
it
works
,
doesn't
it
?
It's
kind
of
it's
a
nice
way
to
just
have
conversations
and
find
out
about
people
,
isn't
it
?
Pilar Orti
6:55
It
is
.
I
think
it's
especially
.
I
mean
,
I
don't
know
about
you
,
but
I
don't
like
chit
chat
,
so
I
like
to
get
into
the
meat
of
the
conversation
.
I
mean
the
kind
of
conversation
we're
having
now
.
I
love
having
it
.
So
the
podcast
gives
you
that
excuse
to
go
straight
into
it
and
it's
really
useful
.
And
also
you
can
reach
out
to
people
who
you
already
maybe
have
something
to
say
to
,
because
you've
read
an
article
of
them
or
,
like
you
,
listen
to
the
podcast
or
you
know
they
work
in
a
specific
field
.
So
you
reach
out
to
them
and
then
the
conversation
is
a
conversation
that
you
want
to
have
.
I
think
that's
something
that
a
lot
of
people
pitching
for
being
on
a
show
or
PR
agencies
pitching
guests
.
They
don't
understand
that
indie
podcasters
are
there
because
we
want
to
have
certain
kind
of
conversations
with
certain
kind
of
people
.
So
I
think
that's
the
main
thing
.
Alex
7:46
And
there's
so
much
going
on
now
with
podcasting
there's
there's
you
mentioned
we
were
talking
about
tools
before
there's
so
much
going
on
.
There's
so
many
.
I
don't
know
about
you
,
but
I
get
a
lot
of
people
pitching
me
to
come
on
on
on
the
show
.
But
,
like
you
,
I
want
to
have
conversations
with
a
specific
type
of
people
and
I
think
it's
yeah
,
I
think
you
mentioned
you
wanted
when
you
talk
about
podcasting
,
you
said
you
wanted
to
explore
doing
things
more
with
your
podcasting
.
Is
that
,
is
that
your
,
one
of
your
eventual
goals
?
Is
it
?
Pilar Orti
8:17
Yeah
,
that's
one
of
the
things
that
I
want
to
do
more
of
,
but
I'm
really
trying
to
see
where
I
fit
in
.
So
again
I
thought
,
well
,
maybe
I
help
coaches
and
facilitators
set
up
their
own
show
,
but
maybe
that's
too
vague
,
maybe
it's
something
about
.
Exploring Podcasting and Diverse Career Paths
Pilar Orti
8:34
There's
something
for
me
about
how
you
show
,
how
,
in
a
way
,
how
you
show
up
at
your
best
in
a
show
,
whether
it's
with
a
guest
or
on
your
own
.
So
there's
something
about
how
much
you
edit
what
you
say
,
if
you
are
looking
after
the
edit
,
or
if
you're
working
with
an
editor
,
how
much
of
a
conversation
should
be
or
shouldn't
be
edited
.
There's
something
that's
really
interesting
there
.
Pilar Orti
8:55
So
,
the
technical
aspect
of
sound
.
There
is
something
about
the
persona
that
we
adopt
.
It
is
really
interesting
.
If
you
listen
to
just
as
I
love
me
as
an
example
,
because
I
know
myself
quite
well
if
you
listen
to
me
in
all
the
different
podcasts
,
you
hear
a
different
side
of
me
.
Sometimes
it's
very
subtle
,
but
it's
definitely
.
Pilar Orti
9:12
You
bring
a
persona
to
the
podcast
.
I
was
gonna
say
,
to
the
show
,
because
it
is
.
You
need
a
performance
energy
.
So
there's
something
about
how
the
podcast
shows
up
.
That
is
also
interesting
to
me
.
But
I
still
,
and
also
haven't
found
how
to
help
,
whether
it's
with
online
courses
or
one-to-one
help
.
I'm
still
yeah
,
and
it
might
be
that
I
end
up
thinking
you
know
,
I
just
wanna
have
,
I
just
wanna
do
a
podcast
,
I
don't
wanna
help
other
people
,
and
then
that's
another
way
which
a
business
can
go
is
how
do
you
make
money
from
your
podcast
?
So
which
I
don't
think
we
can
make
a
lot
of
it
,
but
there
might
be
a
way
of
the
content
being
what
generates
the
income
,
rather
than
it
being
a
vehicle
for
us
to
then
attract
people
to
other
parts
of
our
business
.
Alex
9:56
Yeah
,
it's
so
many
tools
as
well
.
There's
a
deluge
of
different
tools
and
services
,
and
for
me
I
don't
know
if
this
helps
you
,
but
for
me
,
the
consistency
is
.
The
thing
that
I
think
a
lot
of
podcasters
suffer
with
is
the
consistency
,
because
there's
so
many
things
that
are
related
to
doing
a
podcast
,
like
getting
the
guests
,
booking
guests
on
,
and
then
,
once
you've
made
the
recording
,
editing
it
,
scheduling
the
recording
,
post-production
from
you
know
,
promoting
it
and
then
transcribing
it
.
There's
so
many
different
.
Yes
,
I
can
see
why
you're
trying
to
figure
out
where
you
fit
,
because
there's
so
many
aspects
to
it
,
but
in
terms
of
the
theater
side
of
things
,
just
going
back
now
to
your
early
career
,
I'm
keen
to
delve
a
bit
more
into
that
and
because
,
as
I
said
,
I
was
looking
at
your
career
whilst
you
were
,
you
mentioned
well
,
I
mentioned
an
artistic
director
and
workshop
leader
.
How
did
that
?
How
did
you
sort
of
?
How
did
your
career
progress
up
until
that
point
?
And
then
,
after
that
,
more
to
a
more
entrepreneurial
side
of
you
.
How
did
that
all
sort
of
come
about
?
Pilar Orti
11:12
Well
,
I
am
totally
self-made
because
I
have
an
issue
which
some
people
could
look
at
as
a
strength
,
but
I
think
sometimes
it
gets
in
my
own
way
,
which
is
I
am
extremely
curious
and
I
also
like
to
learn
by
doing
so
.
I
really
I'm
very
lucky
that
I
have
a
lot
of
confidence
in
myself
,
and
so
I
don't
mind
making
mistakes
,
I
don't
mind
how
I
look
to
others
sometimes
,
so
I
learned
by
doing
so
.
I
actually
came
to
London
to
do
a
biology
degree
and
then
ended
up
training
as
an
actress
.
I'd
always
loved
acting
,
but
it's
one
thing
to
love
to
act
and
the
other
is
to
want
to
become
an
actor
.
So
I
decided
okay
,
let's
see
what
being
an
actor
looks
like
.
Oh
,
actually
,
let's
learn
to
act
first
.
So
I
trained
and
then
,
during
the
time
at
drama
school
,
I
became
friends
with
someone
else
,
another
actor
,
who
really
was
very
entrepreneurial
as
well
.
So
we
set
up
a
theater
company
.
So
that's
how
it
happened
.
Pilar Orti
12:11
Of
course
,
meanwhile
I
was
looking
for
work
.
I
don't
think
did
I
get
any
other
work
?
I'm
not
sure
,
but
I
didn't
wait
.
And
also
there's
a
whole
thing
of
I
still
have
an
accent
when
I
speak
in
English
,
as
you
see
,
and
I
had
maybe
a
little
bit
less
of
an
accent
,
but
that
limits
you
as
an
actor
what
kind
of
roles
people
might
think
you're
suitable
for
.
It
just
takes
longer
.
I
think
it's
possible
to
have
a
good
career
,
but
that
I
thought
that
might
be
limiting
.
So
I
just
wanted
to
do
the
roles
that
I
wanted
to
do
.
It's
the
same
story
as
now
.
I
wanted
to
do
the
work
I
wanted
to
do
with
the
people
I
wanted
to
work
with
in
the
way
that
I
wanted
to
do
it
and
we
just
learned
and
some
was
really
fun
and
we
did
some
good
work
.
We
also
did
some
terrible
work
at
some
points
and
during
that
I
learned
I'd
always
kind
of
directed
,
but
I'd
learned
to
direct
a
bit
more
.
Pilar Orti
13:03
I'd
always
been
doing
my
own
stuff
when
I
was
little
as
well
.
I
learned
to
teach
through
watching
my
tutors
at
drama
school
,
through
watching
directors
direct
,
and
I
really
started
to
look
at
what
it
was
like
to
lead
a
workshop
.
So
I
learned
to
be
a
theater
workshop
leader
as
well
Again
,
and
that
was
just
by
trying
to
assisting
,
trying
stuff
out
,
and
then
I
started
to
train
other
trainers
as
well
.
I
also
got
all
the
other
actors
going
.
You
want
to
run
,
learn
how
to
run
a
workshop
and
some
people
became
fabulous
teachers
within
the
theater
company
.
So
there
was
a
lot
of
learning
.
Again
,
I've
always
liked
running
things
,
but
of
course
you
had
to
learn
how
to
manage
something
properly
,
you
had
to
learn
about
employment
law
.
So
I
just
learned
everything
and
I
had
a
lot
of
fun
learning
,
and
that's
an
issue
I
have
.
Pilar Orti
13:50
And
the
moment
when
I
thought
,
okay
,
there
might
be
something
else
I
can
be
doing
as
well
,
as
was
when
I
went
to
a
conference
for
theater
companies
and
somebody
,
a
guy
called
Toby
Wilshire
from
Tressel
Theater
Company
,
told
us
about
this
program
,
training
program
they
had
for
corporations
where
they
used
masks
and
theater
exercises
to
train
people
in
presentation
skills
et
cetera
.
So
I
started
to
look
into
this
,
I
started
reading
about
it
,
I
went
on
a
course
a
couple
of
quite
a
nice
long
course
and
then
I
started
doing
it
.
I
found
people
who
won
.
I
ran
one
free
session
for
someone
.
They
gave
me
feedback
.
Then
someone
I
knew
said
hey
,
come
and
talk
to
us
and
they
liked
what
I
was
saying
.
So
I
did
something
and
I
just
learned
that
.
And
you
can
see
,
like
everything
,
there's
something
that
interests
me
and
I
learned
it
by
doing
it
,
and
sometimes
I
crash
and
sometimes
it
goes
quite
well
.
But
if
you
don't
try
,
you
never
know
.
Alex
14:53
I
guess
,
if
you
don't
find
and
it
seems
like
you're
,
it's
.
I
don't
know
as
much
as
you
said
at
the
beginning
,
your
career's
got
different
aspects
to
it
,
but
it's
like
I
said
to
me
,
lots
of
the
things
that
you've
done
are
related
and
it
seems
very
logical
to
me
.
Is
that
?
Was
that
deliberate
,
or
is
that
no
,
no
,
no
,
it's
not
deliberate
.
Pilar Orti
15:15
I
didn't
.
I
mean
,
if
you
look
at
what
I'm
doing
now
specifically
as
well
,
when
I'm
doing
podcasting
and
what
is
it
,
and
I'll
say
,
oh
yeah
,
the
training
of
virtual
teams
.
These
are
all
relatively
new
things
.
When
I
was
I'm
gonna
show
my
age
but
when
I
started
my
studying
training
it
was
1990
.
So
,
boom
,
things
have
changed
so
much
and
there's
no
way
I
could
see
this
.
Pilar Orti
15:43
There
was
a
point
where
everything
came
together
even
more
,
which
is
when
this
thing
about
using
theater
in
training
corporate
training
I
was
actually
doing
team
away
days
and
leadership
training
using
physical
theater
,
which
is
something
that
it's
something
I
love
and
that
was
merging
my
interest
in
science
,
in
physiology
,
in
psychology
.
Theater
,
the
corporate
training
,
the
leadership
,
the
experience
it
really
was
bringing
everything
together
.
Now
it's
gone
a
little
bit
well
,
actually
,
it's
just
evolved
.
So
I
think
what
might
be
happening
it's
very
interesting
that
you
said
that
,
because
I
think
what's
happening
is
just
that
we
develop
some
strength
and
interests
,
and
even
I
might
have
not
even
have
realized
that
what
I
was
doing
was
seeking
when
,
where
can
I
do
more
of
this
?
Pilar Orti
16:34
I've
been
doing
it
like
this
in
this
way
,
but
maybe
if
I
do
that
and
eventually
you
go
well
,
actually
,
if
I
do
it
this
way
,
I
do
it
better
,
or
I
feel
like
I'm
doing
know
what
I'm
doing
if
I
do
it
this
way
.
So
it's
a
very
I
suppose
it's
quite
instinctive
way
of
of
shaping
the
career
.
I
have
to
say
that
the
voiceover
has
stayed
all
the
way
from
when
I've
been
voicing
since
1998
.
I
do
a
lot
less
now
,
so
I
don't
have
a
proper
home
studio
and
a
lot
of
work
has
gone
to
the
homes
.
But
that
also
just
meant
that
I
had
an
income
that
was
relatively
constant
,
which
allowed
me
to
play
a
lot
more
.
I
think
that's
quite
important
to
say
.
Alex
17:11
So
did
you
have
like
multiple
?
It
seems
like
you've
got
multiple
streams
,
but
all
kind
of
running
alongside
each
other
.
Pilar Orti
17:18
Yeah
.
Alex
17:19
Okay
,
and
remote
work
.
As
I
said
,
you're
a
massive
advocate
and
an
expert
where
remote
work
is
concerned
and
training
with
remote
work
.
I'm
trying
to
I
could
probably
when
I'm
looking
at
your
various
things
,
I'm
trying
to
see
where
that
begun
for
you
.
Where
did
that
begin
?
Where
did
that
begin
to
be
important
for
you
?
Pilar Orti
17:40
So
I
was
looking
at
the
leadership
training
et
cetera
,
and
I
started
to
just
see
that
the
people
were
talking
about
this
thing
called
virtual
team
.
So
I
started
to
look
into
that
and
so
two
things
happened
.
One
is
,
as
I
was
looking
into
it
,
I
started
blogging
about
it
and
what
I
found
was
that
the
pieces
that
were
about
that
space
we're
getting
more
attention
that
the
pieces
about
normal
leadership
.
So
I
thought
,
okay
,
the
leadership
training
arena
is
full
I
mean
,
there's
a
lot
of
us
there
anyway
,
in
whatever
aspect
.
But
not
many
people
were
doing
that
the
virtual
team
,
remote
work
thing
and
I
thought
,
well
,
also
,
typically
trainers
are
very
people
people
.
And
this
thing
of
using
technology
to
build
teams
to
like
no
,
no
,
I'm
a
people
person
I
thought
,
great
,
gap
,
I
can
go
in
there
.
I
love
technology
.
I've
always
thought
it's
great
,
I
have
no
issue
with
it
.
So
in
my
head
,
that's
what
was
happening
Transitioning to Remote Work and Offices
Pilar Orti
18:40
.
Pilar Orti
18:40
At
the
same
time
,
a
couple
of
things
happened
.
My
father's
got
Parkinson's
and
he
was
becoming
more
ill
and
more
ill
.
So
I
was
going
more
to
Madrid
and
I
met
my
husband
in
Holland
.
So
at
one
point
,
well
,
he
wasn't
yeah
,
he
wasn't
my
husband
then
,
obviously
,
but
at
one
point
I
was
going
to
London
,
madrid
,
amsterdam
,
london
I
mean
wonderful
life
,
everything
,
everything
,
everything
.
I
was
gonna
be
between
three
different
places
and
I
was
trying
to
build
this
team
building
leadership
,
training
,
business
,
and
I
thought
this
is
really
difficult
.
Pilar Orti
19:15
So
I
started
to
look
at
what
work
was
online
,
and
this
is
when
people
per
hour
was
relatively
new
.
Fiverr
was
around
,
but
that's
a
different
kind
of
thing
Upwork
,
which
I
didn't
touch
on
people
per
hour
.
So
I
looked
for
work
,
I
wrote
some
blog
posts
and
then
there
was
a
post
for
someone
to
moderate
the
forum
of
an
online
leadership
course
and
like
a
credited
leadership
course
,
and
I
thought
I
can
moderate
the
forum
and
that's
something
that
you
can
do
from
anywhere
.
So
I
did
that
.
And
then
the
lady
was
actually
based
in
the
UK
.
So
I
even
met
her
and
met
there
were
a
couple
of
people
in
the
team
then
and
I
stayed
with
that
and
then
at
some
point
she
said
would
you
like
to
run
a
webinar
?
And
I
said
,
yeah
,
I
can
run
a
webinar
.
So
the
lady
who
was
in
charge
of
the
webinar
program
taught
me
how
to
do
it
and
the
first
webinar
I
ran
and
it
was
what
was
that
?
Go
to
webinar
.
Alex
20:10
Okay
.
Pilar Orti
20:11
On
that
platform
only
with
slides
in
the
chat
,
talking
to
people
in
the
chat
.
Every
now
and
then
someone
would
open
the
mic
and
I
ended
my
first
session
and
I
was
sweating
.
Yes
,
because
I've
been
so
engaged
and
I
was
so
into
it
and
it
didn't
matter
.
I
felt
like
I
was
in
a
room
full
of
people
.
Alex
20:31
Wow
.
Pilar Orti
20:31
And
this
is
one
of
the
things
why
I
stayed
in
that
space
is
that
some
people
cannot
connect
unless
they
have
people
around
them
physically
.
For
me
it
doesn't
matter
,
just
with
the
chat
,
just
with
presence
in
the
chat
.
I
felt
like
I'd
been
in
a
room
full
of
people
and
so
,
from
that
,
then
the
lady
who
was
in
charge
of
the
webinar
program
left
,
so
I
took
that
over
and
then
eventually
I
just
thought
,
well
,
maybe
I
can
do
more
stuff
.
And
then
somebody
actually
through
said
I
see
,
oh
,
I
started
to
create
an
online
course
on
leading
remote
teams
and
someone
saw
it
.
And
they
said
,
oh
,
could
you
turn
that
into
an
in-person
workshop
?
And
I
said
,
yes
,
I
can
do
that
.
Alex
21:08
When
was
that
Pilo
about
?
What
time
was
that
?
Pilar Orti
21:12
That
was
19,
.
Sorry
,
2000
,
maybe
18
.
Alex
21:15
Okay
.
Pilar Orti
21:17
Yeah
,
something
like
that
.
So
I
did
a
few
years
pre-corona
of
thing
and
everything
changed
so
much
.
So
,
anyway
,
that
was
where
the
remote
work
came
in
.
Is
I
needed
to
?
I
went
into
the
space
and
saw
the
need
and
just
evolved
.
Alex
21:33
And
have
you
?
I
mean
,
there
was
a
period
where
I
went
back
into
the
office
myself
and
,
yeah
,
kind
of
reflected
.
But
has
there
ever
been
a
time
when
you've
had
to
do
that
yourself
or
been
in
a
period
where
you've
had
to
sort
of
dedicate
yourself
back
into
an
office
environment
again
?
Pilar Orti
21:48
Well
,
you're
gonna
laugh
.
So
I've
been
freelancing
since
all
my
career
.
As
you
probably
noticed
,
I've
been
freelancing
because
I
liked
so
many
things
the
only
way
of
doing
that
.
So
I
had
one
time
when
I
used
to
go
into
an
office
.
You
mentioned
AOL
,
time
Warner
.
I
was
helping
with
some
of
the
audio
there
for
the
Spanish
feed
,
the
Spanish
TCM
,
and
that
was
.
I
think
it
was
one
day
a
week
or
something
and
I'd
go
into
the
office
and
the
studio's
there
.
The
other
thing
is
the
theater
company
had
an
office
and
in
fact
I
remember
sitting
with
the
board
of
directors
.
The
office
was
also
an
issue
because
we're
in
London
and
I
didn't
wanna
find
the
.
Pilar Orti
22:27
I
don't
really
.
I
didn't
wanna
move
to
have
an
office
somewhere
,
but
we
had
an
office
at
a
very
highly
reduced
date
,
sorry
rate
in
central
London
and
it
was
always
an
issue
in
the
board
.
In
the
trustees
meetings
it
was
always
an
agenda
item
what's
happening
with
the
office
?
Because
the
lease
was
about
to
expire
or
whatever
,
and
at
one
point
I
was
like
if
we
don't
have
an
office
,
we
don't
have
a
company
,
really
.
Yeah
,
because
that's
how
it
was
.
Alex
22:54
Yes
,
yes
,
that's
how
it
was
.
Pilar Orti
22:56
If
you
didn't
have
that
,
you
had
no
other
place
for
people
to
gather
.
And
then
eventually
cafes
started
to
open
up
in
central
London
and
then
it
wasn't
as
important
.
Yeah
,
just
like
you
really
just
changed
that
you
could
have
meetings
in
,
but
there
was
a
point
if
you
didn't
have
an
office
,
you
didn't
know
where
to
gather
your
people
.
Yeah
,
and
so
,
yes
,
but
since
we
,
since
I
love
the
theater
company
,
I
started
using
co-working
spaces
,
but
I
rarely
use
them
anymore
as
well
.
I
am
,
I'm
fine
home
.
I've
now
my
life
has
a
lot
of
.
Pilar Orti
23:33
I
do
exercise
,
so
I
go
out
once
for
a
couple
of
hours
into
the
social
club
.
It's
a
gym
,
but
it's
also
social
.
And
yeah
,
I
mean
,
if
I
had
an
office
that
was
really
near
and
really
comfortable
I
mean
,
I
am
part
of
a
co-working
space
,
but
it's
not
as
comfortable
as
this
setup
.
This
is
the
only
thing
.
But
if
I
would
,
I
would
there
,
I'd
be
there
.
We
used
to
have
this
office
in
Rupert
street
in
Piccadilly
.
If
I
could
have
a
really
cheap
,
nice
office
there
now
where
I
was
super
as
comfortable
as
I
was
,
then
of
course
I
would
have
it
.
But
it's
not
one
thing
for
the
other
.
So
yeah
,
Now
,
that's
.
Alex
24:11
That's
it's
funny
to
say
about
the
,
the
idea
of
if
you
don't
have
an
office
,
you
don't
have
a
business
.
Alex
24:18
Because
before
I
started
,
well
,
no
,
there
was
a
point
where
I
actually
,
when
I
was
working
remotely
,
I
didn't
actually
tell
anybody
I
didn't
have
an
office
,
because
I
was
actually
quite
afraid
how
they
would
react
to
me
.
I
had
,
I
had
this
on
my
business
card
,
I
had
this
like
a
service
office
,
Uh-huh
,
yes
,
Service
office
address
,
which
made
it
look
obviously
as
though
I
had
a
.
You
know
,
I
had
an
address
which
which
I
didn't
.
It
was
just
where
I
took
,
well
,
I
gathered
all
my
letters
,
but
I
would
never
tell
anybody
that
I
didn't
have
an
office
.
Because
there
was
times
when
I
did
tell
people
and
they
would
say
,
basically
,
their
whole
sort
of
demeanor
and
their
mood
towards
me
would
change
because
they
think
,
what
kind
of
serious
business
person
doesn't
have
a
,
doesn't
have
an
office
?
You
know
in
,
and
it's
just
amazing
how
you
know
,
okay
,
there's
still
a
way
to
go
in
terms
of
remote
work
being
taken
,
you
know
,
seriously
,
visual
,
virtual
work
being
taken
seriously
,
but
back
then
,
it's
so
much
different
now
then
to
what
it
is
now
,
isn't
it
?
Pilar Orti
25:22
Yeah
,
completely
.
There's
a
lot
of
people
have
told
me
the
same
thing
as
well
that
they
didn't
mention
to
their
clients
or
potential
clients
.
I
think
I
think
now
that's
that's
different
,
which
is
great
,
even
that
that's
been
one
big
.
Some
things
changed
after
the
pandemic
and
some
things
haven't
,
but
I
think
that's
changed
that
actually
now
people
know
that
you
can
run
a
successful
business
,
that
actually
having
an
office
is
probably
a
choice
,
and
I'm
really
happy
about
Remote Work and the Future
Pilar Orti
25:52
that
.
But
then
for
me
it
wasn't
.
Alex
25:54
It
was
the
place
where
people
gathered
and
yeah
,
so
you're
gathering
,
you
say
co-working
spaces
,
but
again
,
like
me
,
I've
got
access
to
co-working
cafes
.
Well
,
we're
in
London
,
so
you
basically
can
go
anywhere
.
But
I
mean
,
although
I
go
out
,
probably
once
a
week
,
maybe
sometimes
twice
a
week
,
I'm
like
I
love
my
home
set
up
because
it's
just
so
,
it's
just
like
so
comfortable
,
it's
like
it
fits
me
like
a
glove
and
I
can
play
my
music
in
the
background
when
I'm
doing
work
or
,
you
know
,
put
my
headphones
on
if
I'm
trying
to
focus
,
or
whatever
it
may
be
.
You
can
never
make
a
co-working
space
as
you
want
it
to
be
,
can
you
?
And
it's
kind
of
,
it's
just
so
.
Yeah
,
but
that's
me
,
that's
just
me
.
Alex
26:39
But
I
wanted
to
ask
you
,
peter
,
as
well
.
So
now
you're
doing
virtual
,
not
distance
is
one
of
your
main
things
.
Tell
me
,
just
give
us
an
example
of
the
kind
of
clients
that
you
work
with
.
I
mean
,
you
don't
have
to
name
them
,
but
the
kind
of
clients
that
you
work
in
,
the
kind
of
work
that
you're
doing
.
If
you
could
,
that'd
be
great
.
Pilar Orti
27:01
Yeah
.
So
I
ended
up
some
by
choice
,
just
by
default
,
working
with
traditional
organizations
that
are
still
trying
to
make
remote
work
work
.
I
think
that's
always
.
That
was
always
my
client
,
actually
,
because
I
like
that
.
I
like
being
the
bridge
.
I
have
a
part
of
me
which
is
very
traditional
worker
and
then
I
have
the
part
,
but
this
is
the
let's
see
what's
next
around
the
corner
and
let's
make
it
up
as
we
go
along
,
but
I
like
that
.
Pilar Orti
27:30
I've
always
enjoyed
working
with
the
more
traditional
organizations
,
maybe
because
that's
maybe
because
they're
the
ones
that
have
a
longer
way
to
go
,
so
I
feel
I
can
help
them
a
little
bit
more
.
So
within
that
over
the
last
few
years
,
it's
been
everything
seen
,
from
small
teams
,
so
very
small
companies
,
to
intergovernmental
organizations
,
so
really
large
organizations
,
and
some
hierarchical
,
but
maybe
just
because
they
haven't
embraced
the
transparency
that
online
can
bring
.
So
not
because
of
anything
,
but
just
organizations
that
are
where
it
takes
a
long
time
to
do
things
.
This
kind
of
these
have
seemed
to
be
,
seem
to
have
been
my
clients
and
what's
really
important
,
I
think
what
I've
noticed
is
that
I
just
have
to
enjoy
working
,
working
with
the
person
I'm
working
with
,
so
the
learning
and
development
or
training
person
.
I
really
we
really
have
to
be
on
the
same
wavelength
at
some
in
some
level
.
Now
,
it's
not
that
we
agree
on
everything
or
see
the
world
in
exactly
the
same
way
,
but
there's
got
to
be
something
there
where
there's
such
a
mutual
respect
.
And
I've
really
seen
,
like
recently
someone
invited
me
to
to
apply
for
their
to
be
on
their
books
,
basically
from
having
come
in
at
Hogg
and
we
had
to
do
.
I
had
to
go
through
all
this
official
thing
,
even
though
I'd
already
worked
there
a
couple
of
times
,
and
my
my
contact
,
she
just
we
did
this
interview
and
she
was
.
You
could
see
that
she
was
asking
all
the
questions
to
make
me
shine
and
stuff
like
that
,
and
it's
really
nice
for
me
it's
very
important
to
eventually
see
the
client
as
a
collaborator
.
Pilar Orti
29:07
Some
some
of
the
jobs
have
done
that
hasn't
happened
and
it's
been
like
well
,
we
just
didn't
,
we
just
saw
the
world
in
such
different
ways
that
they
didn't
work
and
so
that
.
And
then
the
kind
of
things
I
do
well
at
the
.
I
think
I'm
in
the
end
I'm
just
doing
training
.
There
was
a
time
I
wanted
to
do
more
consultancy
,
but
in
the
end
what
I'm
seeing
and
I'm
not
quite
sure
what
I
think
about
this
is
that
most
organizations
want
you
to
come
and
do
one
session
about
something
and
then
that's
it
,
and
I
always
wonder
is
that
enough
?
Pilar Orti
29:39
How
much
can
I
do
in
two
hours
?
Yes
,
and
the
truth
is
that
you
can
do
a
lot
in
two
hours
.
Sometimes
you
might
just
touch
one
or
two
people
and
the
light
bulb
goes
off
for
them
,
and
that's
enough
.
Other
times
,
you
can
see
that
more
people
want
to
do
something
different
after
you've
been
with
them
.
But
one
of
the
last
pieces
I
did
was
really
nice
,
was
a
little
bit
longer
,
because
it
was
about
asynchronous
communication
,
and
that's
what
I'm
focusing
on
now
,
because
I
don't
know
if
you've
noticed
,
in
the
remote
space
,
everyone
was
doing
remote
,
remote
and
I
were
going
.
Oh
okay
,
remote
is
huge
.
Alex
30:15
Some
areas
yeah
.
Pilar Orti
30:16
Yeah
,
now
that
it
really
exploded
.
Some
people
are
doing
well-being
,
some
people
are
.
A
lot
of
us
are
doing
asynchronous
,
because
that's
the
piece
that's
missing
now
in
remote
collaboration
for
most
people
.
So
we
were
doing
,
and
the
client
wanted
me
to
come
and
do
a
webinar
so
very
traditional
again
,
but
with
cameras
on
this
time
and
because
that's
how
she
thought
it
would
land
better
and
what
people
could
do
.
So
what
we
did
do
was
set
up
a
space
where
they
could
discuss
some
stuff
ahead
of
time
,
like
in
teams
.
My
colleague
and
I
,
who
I
was
running
it
with
,
recorded
a
little
piece
just
to
introduce
asynchronous
communication
.
So
nobody
turned
up
at
the
webinar
.
We
had
to
start
right
from
the
beginning
.
What
is
asynchronous
communication
?
So
we
did
that
and
then
we
created
a
guide
to
go
with
the
webinar
so
that
people
could
do
continue
asynchronously
.
They
might
still
be
in
that
team
space
.
I
don't
know
what's
going
on
,
but
that's
a
much
more
satisfying
piece
of
work
because
it's
got
a
little
bit
more
of
a
chance
of
making
a
difference
.
Alex
31:26
Yeah
,
it's
important
.
I
think
what
I'm
seeing
a
lot
is
yeah
,
there's
more
discussions
around
asynchronous
work
,
but
there's
still
I
don't
know
if
you're
feeling
this
as
well
in
terms
of
the
online
stuff
.
I
don't
know
if
this
is
a
reflection
of
how
the
real
world
is
,
but
there's
still
a
lot
of
conversations
around
mainly
castigating
remote
work
.
There's
lots
of
people
who
are
still
not
quite
there
.
Obviously
,
there's
lots
in
the
news
about
bosses
saying
that
workers
should
come
back
into
the
office
and
are
you
getting
an
impression
of
remote
work
?
There's
still
people
perhaps
not
taking
it
as
seriously
as
it
might
be
taken
.
Pilar Orti
32:18
So
I
don't
know
the
number
of
the
episode
,
but
the
episode
that's
coming
out
on
the
what's
four
and
seven
11th
of
May
.
I
discuss
a
lot
of
this
with
Maya
in
the
21st
century
work
life
,
because
this
is
happening
now
and
there's
a
lot
of
stuff
happening
which
is
we're
still
people
are
still
working
out
what
is
good
for
them
,
what
is
good
for
the
organization
.
A
lot
of
the
people
who
are
making
the
decisions
of
how
remote
we
can
be
or
their
hybrid
setup
,
or
whether
remote
work
is
even
allowed
now
,
are
people
who
haven't
been
in
that
world
.
You
think
about
what
their
version
of
remote
work
was
.
It
was
probably
madly
being
in
meetings
all
day
trying
to
rescue
the
business
or
trying
to
see
what
do
we
do
.
So
a
lot
of
the
experience
of
the
people
making
the
decisions
is
not
a
good
version
of
online
collaboration
and
remote
work
,
so
that's
something
we
need
to
bear
in
mind
.
It's
a
shame
,
but
it's
happening
and
we'll
see
where
it
all
lands
and
we
are
still
in
flux
.
They
will
.
We
see
companies
going
yeah
,
people
can
do
this
or
no
,
we
can't
or
no
.
Yes
,
we
can
or
no
,
we
can't
.
And
in
a
way
,
sometimes
you
think
,
well
,
they've
got
to
try
something
and
they've
got
to
say
something
,
what
I
think
is
a
shame
.
And
,
interestingly
,
we
just
go
back
to
I
think
it
was
October
2020,
.
Pilar Orti
33:40
I
was
on
a
I
did
like
a
panel
thing
with
an
organization
in
Spain
and
they
said
what
do
you
think
is
going
to
happen
after
the
?
How
are
we
going
to
come
out
of
the
pandemic
regarding
remote
work
?
And
I
said
,
well
,
we're
going
to
see
companies
that
are
office
first
probably
didn't
use
that
term
,
but
I
said
people
who
say
everyone
in
the
office
at
the
other
end
of
the
spectrum
will
continue
to
have
fully
distributed
companies
,
and
then
you
have
a
whole
thing
in
the
middle
.
And
the
important
thing
about
this
that
is
different
to
the
before
the
pandemic
is
that
now
people
might
have
a
choice
.
Now
everyone
has
a
choice
of
where
they
work
,
because
now
everyone
is
that
fortunate
or
how
they
work
.
But
the
people
who
have
a
choice
will
look
for
that
.
And
if
you're
someone
who
wants
to
go
into
the
office
five
days
a
week
and
you
want
a
culture
where
that
is
important
,
hopefully
you'll
have
places
to
go
to
,
and
if
you
want
the
opposite
,
you
have
to
.
Hopefully
there's
that
choice
.
So
my
hope
is
that
,
yeah
,
jp
Morgan
has
said
all
the
managers
need
to
be
in
the
office
because
this
and
that
Well
,
let's
see
what
JP
Morgan
is
in
10
years
time
,
and
maybe
it
does
really
well
,
but
everyone
there
has
a
certain
way
of
working
.
The Complexities of Hybrid Work
Pilar Orti
34:44
The
other
thing
I
think
we
need
to
bear
in
mind
is
the
reasons
that
people
are
giving
are
sometimes
not
great
.
I
just
wish
they
said
,
look
,
we
can't
make
it
work
.
Like
I
think
it
was
one
of
the
guys
said
I
don't
know
how
you
train
managers
to
be
remote
.
Great
,
that's
what
we
need
.
We
just
need
more
transparency
of
look
,
we
just
think
this
is
not
working
for
us
for
these
reasons
,
but
not
because
you
can't
do
collaboration
,
not
because
you
can't
do
productivity
.
It's
like
we
know
you
can
do
all
of
that
.
It's
just
look
,
we
haven't
figured
it
out
and
we've
decided
that
,
instead
of
trying
to
figure
it
out
,
we
need
to
get
out
with
a
business
.
We
need
to
continue
doing
this
.
We
need
to
continue
that
.
We
don't
have
time
to
explore
that
.
We're
just
going
back
to
how
it
was
.
Okay
,
it's
a
shame
,
but
payhold
,
I
don't
mind
the
organization
saying
we
don't
want
people
to
work
remotely
,
but
don't
say
it's
because
remote
work
doesn't
work
.
Alex
35:35
Yes
,
100%
agree
.
That's
probably
a
lack
of
acceptance
that
the
future
is
.
There's
a
what's
the
word
?
Sort
of
like
a
spectrum
of
different
ways
of
working
,
like
you
say
.
Well
,
like
you're
inferring
,
is
that
there's
not
an
acceptance
that
some
people
prefer
to
work
this
way
and
there's
other
people
on
this
spectrum
that
prefer
to
work
that
way
?
Yeah
,
it's
something
that's
it's
difficult
.
It's
very
difficult
because
I
think
even
the
idea
of
hybrid
work
to
me
is
quite
difficult
.
Alex
36:12
There's
a
challenge
where
hybrid
work
is
concerned
,
and
I
can
see
,
because
when
I
interviewed
Nick
Francis
a
few
years
ago
,
obviously
Nick
Francis
remote
first
,
you
know
,
remote
first
CEO
,
and
I
was
thinking
back
then
when
I
first
spoke
to
him
,
when
he
said
to
me
you
know
,
because
obviously
his
theory
and
his
ethic
is
around
remote
first
being
the
best
way
for
his
company
to
work
.
And
if
you've
got
a
blend
of
sort
of
like
remote
and
hybrid
,
that's
where
it
becomes
even
more
challenging
to
keep
people
on
board
with
the
culture
,
you
know
,
career
development
,
all
those
different
things
.
I
hope
you
think
you
loved
it
.
It
was
only
when
I
started
to
sort
of
really
think
about
how
many
different
things
that
hybrid
managers
have
to
do
in
order
to
keep
their
team
engaged
,
that
I
realized
how
what
Nick
Francis
said
was
you
know
it
really
made
sense
to
me
.
Alex
37:07
Then
there's
so
many
things
I
mean
you
have
to
.
You
know
,
if
you're
working
in
a
hybrid
situation
,
there's
gonna
be
some
people
that
may
come
in
more
than
others
or
have
more
interaction
with
a
manager
than
others
,
as
others
that
might
not
.
You
know
,
somebody
might
come
in
a
different
day
or
just
totally
different
complexities
to
it
.
So
I
don't
know
,
I
can't
see
myself
how
it's
gonna
sort
of
shape
up
,
and
I'm
sure
there
are
other
.
I'm
sure
there
are
hybrid
teams
out
there
that
are
doing
it
successfully
and
in
fact
I'd
probably
like
to
have
a
couple
of
them
on
the
podcast
.
Pilar Orti
37:37
Well
,
you
know
,
when
just
before
the
pandemic
,
I
think
was
2019
Gallup
surveyed
engagement
for
remote
workers
and
they
said
the
highest
engagement
was
for
those
I
think
it
was
either
three
who
were
either
three
or
four
days
not
in
the
office
.
So
already
before
then
,
remote
actually
didn't
mean
that
a
whole
team
was
away
from
the
office
and
it
didn't
even
mean
that
one
person
was
100%
of
the
time
away
from
the
office
.
Remote
then
also
meant
that
sometimes
people
were
working
not
in
the
office
,
but
because
that
was
probably
not
that
widespread
,
then
it
was
just
remote
.
So
I
think
that
hybrid
already
existed
before
,
but
we
didn't
call
it
that
way
.
The
other
thing
is
that
hybrid
is
very
difficult
and
one
I'm
hearing
you
speak
.
It
just
needs
a
lot
more
coordination
and
deliberate
communication
than
remote
only
or
office
only
.
So
people
have
to
work
a
lot
harder
,
and
I'm
not
sure
that
everyone
really
wants
to
do
that
.
Pilar Orti
38:43
And
the
other
thing
is
that
what
we're
going
to
see
as
well
and
this
might
not
be
very
popular
,
I
don't
say
this
often
is
that
people
who
want
to
work
because
there
are
a
lot
of
employees
who
want
to
work
in
a
hybrid
way
it's
not
just
the
organization
saying
we
want
to
see
people
in
the
office
.
People
are
saying
what
I
want
is
to
work
a
couple
of
days
from
home
,
or
three
days
from
home
,
and
I
want
the
office
.
However
,
that
means
that
the
employers
have
to
keep
those
offices
ready
,
and
not
just
ready
.
They
have
to
be
the
kind
of
place
that
people
,
when
they
come
in
,
feel
welcome
.
But
I
think
at
some
point
and
this
is
already
happening
actually
there's
going
to
be
not
just
forced
going
into
the
office
from
people
who
want
to
use
those
buildings
,
but
there's
going
to
be
forced
working
from
home
from
organizations
that
say
you
know
what
doesn't
make
any
sense
.
So
I'm
sorry
,
if
you
want
to
come
into
the
office
two
days
a
week
because
you're
going
to
leave
the
house
,
we
don't
have
an
office
for
you
anymore
.
Alex
39:36
Wow
.
Pilar Orti
39:37
Yeah
,
and
that
,
of
course
,
why
would
you
?
Why
would
you
?
But
again
,
this
is
,
I
mean
,
the
situation
we're
in
about
it
,
alex
,
if
you
think
about
it
is
really
weird
,
because
if
you
have
the
same
job
I
mean
I'm
not
employed
and
if
you
had
the
same
job
in
2019
as
you
have
now
,
you
might
not
have
signed
up
for
the
conditions
in
which
you
are
now
.
You
didn't
sign
up
for
that
.
So
there's
going
to
be
a
time
when
now
people
need
to
,
at
some
point
,
know
what
,
how
their
work
life
is
going
to
continue
with
regards
to
that
organization
,
so
that
they
can
make
,
hopefully
,
a
choice
about
whether
they
continue
or
not
.
But
at
the
moment
and
this
is
why
it's
so
difficult
is
people
are
like
I
didn't
sign
up
for
this
,
I
didn't
sign
up
to
work
from
home
all
the
time
from
people
who
were
going
to
the
office
and
people
who
have
to
go
to
the
office
all
the
time
are
like
I
didn't
sign
up
for
a
workplace
that
didn't
listen
to
what
had
been
going
on
for
the
last
three
years
.
Pilar Orti
40:37
Yeah
,
so
this
,
oh
.
Alex
40:39
Lots
of
complexities
.
Pilar Orti
40:40
Yeah
,
I
did
a
session
on
the
psychological
contract
for
a
client
,
because
this
is
what's
happening
is
everyone's
unspoken
contracts
and
what
we
expected
from
each
other
and
from
our
employees
have
been
broken
and
we
need
to
talk
about
it
because
expectations
we
had
before
might
not
be
the
same
and
anyway
,
it's
a
huge
.
That's
why
it's
so
fascinating
.
It
is
fascinating
.
Alex
41:02
It
is
fascinating
and
I
see
you
know
what
you
just
said
is
big
as
well
having
the
discussions
around
it
,
the
contracts
and
all
that
sort
of
thing
and
the
way
it
sort
of
plays
out
to
me
every
day
when
I'm
looking
because
I
look
online
,
I
look
at
,
you
know
,
when
I'm
dealing
with
my
clients
I'm
helping
to
find
work
,
for
example
,
and
,
like
what
you
said
,
there's
some
of
my
clients
who
are
very
much
about
.
They
don't
want
to
go
back
to
the
office
,
there's
others
that
want
to
go
back
to
the
office
and
there's
some
in
the
middle
but
their
lives
are
not
is
not
made
very
easy
by
some
of
the
job
adverts
that
you
see
on
.
You
know
some
of
the
job
adverts
you
see
online
.
I
mean
is
just
one
example
where
you've
got
some
company
saying
you
know
,
remote
,
friendly
or
remote
first
,
or
fully
remote
,
100%
remote
or
remote
open
to
remote
.
You
know
what
I
mean
.
Pilar Orti
41:54
Open
to
remote
Okay
.
Alex
41:57
It's
just
like
what
does
that
actually
mean
?
So
I
think
I
don't
know
if
it
was
you
that
said
online
I
think
it
might
have
been
you
that
there
needs
to
be
sort
of
a
definition
for
what
,
what
?
What
do
you
mean
by
remote
work
?
Because
I
think
now
even
somebody
like
who's
it
?
I
think
,
is
it
GitLab
?
I
think
they
,
they
,
they
call
themselves
all
remote
and
that
that
confuses
.
That's
confusing
in
its
.
I'm
not
saying
that
they're
confusing
,
but
I'm
saying
these
different
definitions
confuse
people
.
And
then
the
people
that
write
the
job
descriptions
and
the
adverts
,
who
perhaps
were
that
good
at
writing
adverts
anyway
to
begin
with
,
are
now
trying
to
tempt
people
by
saying
,
oh
,
what
would
this
that
would
do
that
?
But
it's
,
it's
,
it's
confusing
me
,
you
know
.
Pilar Orti
42:45
I
think
,
just
thinking
back
to
whether
I
said
I
think
I
might
have
been
talking
about
hybrid
,
specifically
,
right
,
the
,
the
,
because
,
yes
,
remote
first
,
full
remote
,
blah
,
blah
,
blah
,
blah
,
all
of
that
is
confusing
.
I
think
that
hybrid
is
that
times
three
times
confusing
,
because
hybrid
means
nothing
.
I
mean
hybrid
can
mean
,
and
also
,
I
think
we're
still
.
We're
still
talking
about
location
.
What
is
this
?
What
does
hybrid
mean
?
Does
it
mean
hybrid
choice
?
Does
it
mean
that
you
have
a
choice
?
Does
it
mean
that
you're
working
with
P
in
an
environment
where
there's
so
much
independence
that
everyone
does
what
they
want
,
because
some
people
might
not
want
to
work
in
a
team
where
everyone
can
choose
where
they
work
because
that
might
not
be
what
they
like
.
So
,
yes
,
I
think
that
,
yeah
,
I
think
at
some
point
,
hopefully
,
the
hybrid
first
,
I
don't
know
.
Hybrid
,
the
three
,
two
,
hybrid
,
autonomous
,
hybrid
,
dictated
,
remote
,
dictated
,
working
from
hundred
.
Take
the
co-working
enabled
.
We
can
think
of
lots
of
definitions
.
Alex
43:47
There
is
so
many
definitions
and
that's
yeah
,
but
hopefully
,
I
mean
,
I
don't
know
how
this
is
all
going
to
sort
of
sort
of
pan
out
and
how
it's
all
going
to
sort
of
set
yourself
down
,
but
I
think
,
yeah
,
it'd
be
interesting
to
see
what
things
happen
.
I
think
somebody
said
I
think
who
was
it
that
came
on
the
podcast
and
was
saying
to
me
that
this
year
and
the
beginning
of
next
year
is
going
to
be
the
year
of
sort
of
get
people
getting
back
into
the
office
or
businesses
saying
come
back
in
the
office
.
And
he
said
that
,
as
of
you
know
,
maybe
tail
end
of
2004
,
beginning
of
2005
,
that
it's
going
to
be
more
around
things
going
to
settle
down
and
then
we're
going
to
see
a
bit
more
definition
in
terms
of
the
companies
that
are
more
comfortable
to
say
fully
remote
or
whatever
.
It's
remote
first
,
but
be
interested
to
see
what
the
future
holds
,
you
know
,
but
we
will
see
,
we
will
see
and
we
shall
see
.
Alex
44:44
And
for
you
,
pila
,
because
there's
so
many
avenues
in
which
your
career
can
go
down
,
you
have
your
freelancers
,
you
said
and
you've
done
a
variety
of
things
but
,
as
I
mentioned
,
all
interconnected
.
If
your
career
,
if
you
visualize
your
career
as
like
a
staircase
.
How
far
are
you
along
that
?
How
far
are
you
up
that
staircase
?
Pilar Orti
45:12
Well
,
if
I
were
20
,
I
would
say
at
the
bottom
,
but
not
20
.
Just
from
.
So
I
am
shifting
how
I
look
at
my
life
.
Anyway
,
I
want
to
do
more
writing
.
I'm
learning
to
write
fiction
as
well
.
Pilar Orti
45:30
There's
just
a
lot
of
stuff
that
I'm
trying
to
do
and
I
am
at
the
beginning
of
where
I
want
to
be
in
10
years
time
,
if
I
get
there
,
because
what
I
want
to
,
I
want
to
have
a
lot
more
sources
of
income
and
I
want
to
productize
a
lot
of
what
I'm
delivering
now
.
I
really
want
to
do
that
,
in
fact
.
I
want
,
in
fact
,
if
you
or
anyone
listening
knows
of
a
way
of
delivering
audio
courses
that
is
easy
,
where
you
can
charge
not
through
a
podcast
,
not
through
teachable
then
let
me
know
,
because
I
think
that
I
would
love
to
do
that
.
I
want
,
in
fact
,
I've
been
creating
with
a
colleague
hopefully
we'll
get
it
out
at
some
point
this
year
an
audio
course
about
asynchronous
,
and
I
think
I
would
like
to
do
a
lot
more
of
that
.
I
want
to
create
audio
courses
that
people
can
listen
to
and
reflect
on
away
from
the
computer
.
So
I
want
to
do
that
.
Pilar Orti
46:22
I
want
to
do
more
writing
and
find
what
ways
of
income
I
can
create
as
a
creator
,
as
an
artist
I'm
.
Also
I
want
to
go
into
the
self-help
arena
because
I've
been
doing
some
doodles
with
Happy
Day
C
,
which
is
where
she's
got
this
message
of
slow
down
and
smell
,
slow
down
and
smell
the
coffee
kind
of
thing
,
and
so
,
and
again
,
I'm
learning
.
I'm
learning
how
to
draw
comics
,
so
I
just
there's
a
whole
new
way
of
.
I
read
somewhere
that
work
is
how
we
express
ourselves
,
and
that
has
been
so
true
for
me
and
I
think
I'm
now
ready
to
just
make
it
about
self-expression
rather
than
anything
else
.
So
I
am
at
the
bottom
because
I
am
shifting
,
I'm
completely
shifting
,
and
I
think
I'm
ready
to
leave
some
parts
of
my
professional
career
behind
.
I'm
not
ready
to
leave
some
others
.
So
I
think
I'm
yeah
,
if
it
were
a
staircase
,
I'm
definitely
at
the
bottom
and
I'm
rolling
a
.
There's
a
lot
more
to
come
.
Alex
47:27
There's
more
to
come
.
I
wouldn't
say
you're
crawling
with
talk
.
I
think
there's
the
message
I
got
from
that
is
lots
more
to
come
.
And
I
think
there's
so
many
different
averages
and
I
think
,
yeah
,
audio
I
think
is
going
to
be
as
big
as
it
is
now
,
but
it's
going
to
get
even
bigger
.
And
you
know
,
back
to
the
idea
of
remote
work
and
async
work
.
There's
still
not
complete
clarity
on
how
that's
all
done
.
So
if
you
can
deliver
that
in
an
audio
course
,
then
you
could
be
onto
something
there
.
Pilar Orti
47:59
I
hope
so
,
and
it's
pitched
what's
really
interesting
?
So
,
without
going
off
on
another
tangent
,
what's
really
interesting
at
the
moment
is
there
is
a
lot
like
this
week
I
there's
a
lovely
guy
who's
about
to
publish
with
the
mainstream
book
on
async
,
so
I
got
that
to
have
a
look
and
give
an
endorsement
.
Someone
else
also
got
in
touch
with
me
and
said
can
you
have
a
look
at
this
stuff
online
which
is
all
about
async
?
And
then
I
saw
someone
else
post
on
LinkedIn
.
I've
got
this
new
guide
about
async
.
There's
a
lot
of
stuff
that's
coming
out
for
fully
distributed
,
mainly
software
developers
,
that
kind
of
.
You
mentioned
GitLab
.
You
know
the
GitLab
aspiring
those
companies
that
aspire
to
be
like
GitLab
.
Pilar Orti
48:40
There's
a
huge
piece
for
organizations
like
the
ones
I've
been
working
with
,
which
are
the
traditional
ones
,
which
are
not
going
to
use
half
of
those
terms
.
They're
not
going
to
do
all
that
stuff
,
but
need
to
make
their
remote
work
more
sustainable
.
So
that's
the
space
I'm
looking
at
,
and
I
think
our
course
is
very
basic
,
but
I
think
it
just
touches
on
all
the
things
that
some
people
have
not
had
time
to
think
about
.
Exploring the Potential for Audio Courses
Pilar Orti
49:05
So
,
and
yeah
,
in
audio
,
I'm
really
excited
about
finding
a
way
there's
still
not
a
way
of
delivering
audio
as
courses
,
but
I
think
it's
a
matter
of
time
before
someone
says
here's
an
app
.
Alex
49:16
Yeah
,
because
all
you
get
really
is
you've
got
audio
books
,
but
that's
not
really
a
course
,
is
it
?
And
then
you've
got
I
mean
,
has
started
to
test
a
lot
of
audio
now
,
so
that
kind
of
is
a
clue
as
to
what's
to
come
,
maybe
.
Pilar Orti
49:31
Yeah
,
and
to
be
honest
,
I
haven't
looked
at
how
that
would
work
there
,
but
the
courses
and
stuff
are
.
I
mean
,
they're
closed
,
so
you
need
to
be
invited
to
deliver
them
,
which
I
suppose
I
could
look
into
,
and
they
have
been
looking
at
audio
and
even
podcasts
and
stuff
.
One
of
the
online
course
platforms
now
has
come
up
with
a
mobile
app
.
That
might
be
the
solution
,
because
then
you
can
have
your
PDFs
in
there
as
well
for
reference
and
there
might
even
be
a
community
featuring
it
.
But
you
don't
need
to
feel
it
can
feel
it
can
be
okay
delivering
audio
through
that
.
So
maybe
that's
the
answer
.
But
I
definitely
agree
with
you
that
audio
became
very
big
,
has
become
really
big
over
the
last
five
years
,
and
I
think
we're
going
to
see
more
.
Alex
50:20
Maybe
you
could
create
your
own
platform
.
Maybe
it
could
be
a
new
thing
.
I'm
trying
to
wrap
my
brain
.
I
can't
think
of
anything
that
just
delivers
audio
.
Pilar Orti
50:28
Well
,
if
any
developer
is
out
there
because
I
did
,
and
I
was
talking
to
someone
at
some
point
who
was
creating
something
,
but
I
don't
know
what's
happened
people
come
and
go
,
but
yeah
,
I
think
that
I
want
to
create
something
that
I
know
will
work
and
that
if
someone
,
if
a
learner
,
has
a
problem
,
that
I'm
not
the
one
they
go
to
.
So
I
want
a
platform
where
they
have
a
customer
service
so
I
don't
have
to
deal
with
that
.
So
creating
something
new
might
be
a
bit
scary
,
but
you
know
,
let's
see
.
Watch
the
space
Watch
the
space
.
Alex
50:58
We'll
be
watching
this
space
,
definitely
.
Well
,
I
mean
,
it's
been
great
having
you
on
again
,
auti
,
but
I
just
wanted
to
ask
you
finally
,
because
we've
talked
all
about
work
what
do
you
do
when
you're
not
working
?
What
do
you
do
?
You
gave
us
a
bit
of
a
clue
in
terms
of
some
of
the
things
,
like
the
gym
.
You
mentioned
the
gym
.
Are
you
a
fitness
?
What
are
the
things
that
you
do
when
you're
not
working
?
Pilar Orti
51:24
So
lots
of
stuff
,
because
something
I've
been
really
trying
to
do
over
the
last
year
was
to
spend
less
hours
at
the
computer
and
work
less
actually
,
and
just
the
reason
I
want
to
work
less
is
so
that
I
can
enjoy
it
more
.
So
I
don't
feel
like
I'm
really
done
working
and
catching
up
.
I
know
I
want
to
do
things
well
,
so
I
actually
take
Fridays
off
,
but
work
on
Saturdays
,
and
by
work
I
mean
editing
podcasts
,
which
is
so
awesome
,
and
it's
like
being
in
a
room
with
my
friends
listening
back
to
conversations
.
So
I
love
it
.
But
I
did
that
and
it's
very
interesting
.
If
anyone
has
any
flexibility
.
I
found
that
,
because
I
take
Friday
off
,
saturday
is
great
because
I
have
a
lot
of
energy
for
that
last
day
.
Then
I
take
Sunday
off
completely
and
then
I
start
again
on
Monday
.
Pilar Orti
52:14
I
do
pilates
,
which
is
great
for
Well
,
as
a
voiceover
.
It's
great
for
the
breath
something
I
discovered
after
drama
school
and
it's
great
for
posture
.
It's
great
for
strength
.
It's
like
if
anyone
is
thinking
about
yeah
,
we're
all
sitting
up
now
.
So
pilates
.
I
do
a
dance
class
.
I
used
to
do
Zumba
,
but
it's
too
cold
in
the
gym
where
I
do
it
.
I
do
a
dance
class
because
I
love
dancing
and
this
is
just
like
a
fun
dance
class
and
then
I
do
another
kind
of
pilates
thing
and
then
I
started
doing
yoga
,
which
I
really
like
.
I
really
like
the
teacher
.
She's
like
a
.
Really
Her
style
reminds
me
of
the
physical
theater
tutors
Really
just
wonderful
.
I
read
a
lot
.
I
love
reading
.
Every
morning
I
read
at
least
20
minutes
and
then
throughout
the
day
,
if
I
can
,
fiction
.
I
also
read
a
lot
of
nonfiction
and
I
watch
a
lot
of
television
.
I
love
crime
dramas
,
yeah
.
Alex
53:09
Crime
dramas
.
Pilar Orti
53:10
Great
,
especially
the
foreign
ones
.
Alex
53:14
What's
the
latest
crime
?
What
kind
I
mean
?
I
don't
get
to
watch
a
lot
of
TV
,
but
the
last
crime
?
I
don't
know
if
this
counts
,
but
the
last
crime
drama
I
watched
was
Breaking
Bad
.
Pilar Orti
53:24
Oh
,
I
didn't
ever
watch
that
.
I
know
it
was
big
,
but
I
didn't
watch
that
at
all
.
Alex
53:30
I
don't
know
if
that
counts
as
a
crime
drama
,
because
I'm
not
that
into
TV
.
As
I
said
,
Maybe
you
do
that
.
Pilar Orti
53:36
Yeah
,
well
,
if
anyone
listening
does
like
crime
drama
.
Well
,
we
don't
have
Netflix
because
we
were
going
to
sign
up
to
Netflix
.
Alex
53:43
Oh
,
I
see
.
Pilar Orti
53:44
And
we
were
going
to
sign
up
and
we
bought
the
Broku
the
thing
to
go
online
and
Channel
4
in
the
UK
has
so
much
stuff
and
then
we
also
still
record
from
television
into
a
digital
recorder
.
There's
just
so
much
stuff
.
We
don't
need
Netflix
,
but
there's
a
lot
of
.
Channel
4
in
the
UK
has
lots
of
Scandinavian
drama
,
lots
of
French
crime
.
That's
just
so
great
.
And
then
I
also
like
cozy
mysteries
because
that's
what
I'm
writing
.
So
I
also
watch
things
like
Private
Eyes
or
I
was
watching
today
Rearounds
of
Castle
.
I
don't
know
if
you've
heard
of
that
?
Alex
54:17
I've
not
seen
that
.
No
,
no
,
what's
that
about
?
Pilar Orti
54:18
Yeah
,
Castle
is
just
Well
.
They're
now
in
season
17
,
but
I
used
to
watch
it
when
it
was
season
one
.
Crime Writer and TV Shows
Pilar Orti
54:24
It
was
about
a
crime
writer
that
joins
the
police
or
that
is
shadowing
someone
in
the
police
.
So
it's
just
like
really
easy
cases
.
It's
just
very
cozy
dramas
and
you
don't
really
see
blood
.
There's
no
real
violence
,
it
just
you
know
.
They
just
solve
the
case
and
then
you
know
.
You
always
know
that
the
person
who
did
it
is
whoever
.
If
they
have
a
relatively
high-profile
actor
in
the
episode
,
that's
the
person
who
did
it
.
Alex
54:47
That's
the
one
that
did
it
,
so
it's
not
difficult
to
work
out
who
did
it
.
Pilar Orti
54:51
So
I
love
that
,
I
love
watching
television
.
I
really
,
really
do
it
.
So
,
yeah
,
that's
the
things
I
do
,
but
work
is
fun
,
so
Well
,
it's
good
to
.
Alex
55:00
It's
good
when
you
can
get
to
that
point
where
work
is
fun
.
There's
not
many
people
that
I
speak
to
who
have
reached
that
point
,
and
I
think
everybody
.
What
I'm
going
to
do
is
leave
your
details
in
the
show
notes
,
pilar
,
because
I
think
and
that's
the
reason
why
I
did
it
back
on
the
podcast
,
because
I
know
that
I
get
a
lot
of
inspiration
from
what
you
do
with
the
podcasting
and
your
work
,
so
I
know
that
other
people
can
as
well
,
and
I
just
want
to
say
thank
you
again
for
being
on
the
podcast
and
we'll
certainly
be
looking
out
for
what
you
do
in
the
future
,
and
maybe
there's
a
third
episode
in
the
making
at
some
point
.
Pilar Orti
55:33
That
would
be
great
.
Can
I
do
something
really
quickly
?
Something
I've
realised
through
adventures
in
podcasting
and
especially
talking
to
Michelle
Ong
,
who's
a
lady
who
has
steam-powered
podcasts
talking
to
women
in
science
,
and
when
we
were
talking
we
thought
one
of
the
things
that
came
out
that
really
struck
me
that
I
hadn't
thought
of
before
was
when
we
podcast
.
As
podcasters
,
of
course
,
we
connect
with
our
audience
,
so
we
create
a
space
for
ourselves
.
Then
we
bring
a
guest
and
the
guest
wants
to
communicate
with
the
audience
,
and
that
is
very
important
as
well
.
But
what
we
also
do
is
we
create
a
space
for
the
guest
when
we're
doing
interviews
to
stop
,
and
we
create
the
space
for
them
to
talk
about
their
work
,
to
reflect
on
their
stuff
,
and
your
questions
have
been
really
amazing
.
So
thank
you
,
because
I
really
really
enjoyed
that
.
It's
just
such
a
nice
.
You
created
a
really
nice
space
for
me
,
so
I
hope
the
listeners
also
enjoyed
it
.
Alex
56:27
I
loved
it
.
It
just
feels
like
a
great
conversation
to
me
and
,
like
I
said
,
I
hope
people
can
get
some
value
I'm
sure
they
can
and
put
your
details
in
the
show
notes
.
But
,
yeah
,
and
it
sounds
like
there's
a
lot
for
you
to
come
,
it
sounds
like
you're
involved
in
a
lot
of
things
.
But
,
as
I
said
,
I'll
be
keeping
an
eye
on
things
and
,
yeah
,
hopefully
speak
to
you
again
soon
,
pilar
.
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