Ever wondered how a company can maintain genuine human interaction in the age of AI? Join us as we explore this question with Ben Congleton, the founder and CEO of Olark. Discover the origins of Olark’s groundbreaking live chat software, and learn why Ben believes that real human touch in customer service is irreplaceable despite the rise of automation. From the unexpected journey of transitioning to a fully remote company to the tangible benefits of remote work, this episode promises valuable insights for business owners and job seekers alike.
Meet the man who turned a college project into a thriving business that champions human-centric technology. Ben shares his thoughts on the pitfalls of over-relying on automated bots and emphasizes the importance of empathy in customer interactions. Hear firsthand how Olark’s meticulous hiring process ensures they bring on board individuals who align with their core values. Whether you’re running a small business or looking to join one, Ben’s advice on tailored applications and communication skills will equip you for success.
Looking ahead, Olark is gearing up to introduce innovative live chat products designed to enhance both employee performance and customer satisfaction. Ben gives us a sneak peek into future plans, including exciting tools like Dino Insight. This episode is a blend of gratitude, forward-thinking optimism, and actionable insights, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in building a business that truly cares about people. Tune in to hear how Olark is making business interactions more human and what this means for the future of work.
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Chat in Growing Businesses
Speaker 1
0:00
So
,
hello
everybody
,
another
edition
of
the
Remote
Work
Life
Summit
and
today
,
yet
another
wonderful
guest
.
I've
got
Ben
Congleton
of
OLARC
and
Ben
,
I've
been
following
Ben
.
I
mean
I
tend
to
follow
quite
a
lot
of
people
online
,
but
there's
a
certain
criteria
of
people
who
I
want
to
get
online
and
really
interview
them
to
find
out
more
about
their
business
.
Olark
is
a
wonderful
um
software
application
,
I
guess
you
could
say
it
helps
to
build
relationships
,
it
helps
businesses
to
grow
and
,
you
know
,
obviously
in
keeping
with
the
,
the
whole
idea
of
remote
work
and
distributed
teams
,
ben
is
a
founder
and
a
CEO
of
one
of
those
.
So
and
a
very
successful
one
,
I
might
add
as
well
.
Speaker 1
0:51
So
,
as
I
said
,
I
wanted
to
get
him
on
here
to
find
out
more
about
Olak
and
to
find
out
more
about
him
.
Ben
,
thank
you
for
joining
me
.
Yeah
,
alex
,
glad
to
be
here
,
excellent
.
And
Ben
,
as
I
said
,
I
mean
I
know
a
bit
about
Olark
,
but
there's
going
to
be
one
or
two
people
out
there
who
may
not
know
about
Olark
.
So
could
you
tell
us
a
bit
more
about
Olark
and
how
you
got
?
Speaker 2
1:17
to
where
you
are
.
Yeah
,
yeah
,
for
sure
.
So
if
you
visit
a
website
recently
,
you've
probably
noticed
that
in
the
bottom
right-hand
corner
there's
often
a
little
button
that
says
like
click
here
to
chat
.
We're
one
of
the
first
companies
to
do
that
.
We
got
that
thing
started
back
in
2009
.
And
so
a
lot
of
the
websites
that
you
visit
today
have
a
look
on
them
.
A
lot
of
them
are
white-labeled
,
A
lot
of
them
are
competitors
,
but
more
or
less
we
got
that
whole
craze
started
.
Speaker 2
1:41
We
were
the
first
company
that
decided
,
hey
,
chat
should
be
on
page
,
it
shouldn't
be
in
a
pop-up
window
,
and
there
should
be
a
person
there
,
not
a
robot
,
not
someone
in
a
call
center
that
doesn't
understand
the
business
.
It
should
be
someone
that
works
at
your
company
helping
to
sell
the
product
,
because
people
have
questions
before
they
buy
and
it
turns
out
that
if
you
talk
to
them
when
they
have
these
questions
quickly
and
instantly
,
they're
more
likely
to
buy
.
And
so
we
have
over
12,000
businesses
using
us
today
.
We've
helped
companies
like
Bonobos
grow
,
microsoft
as
a
customer
,
and
even
really
,
really
small
customers
like
little
plumbing
groups
or
real
estate
management
companies
.
If
you
have
a
website
and
you
have
traffic
on
that
website
,
you
need
chat
on
it
.
You
don't
have
to
be
there
24-7
.
You
can
be
there
just
a
couple
hours
of
the
day
,
but
you
will
capture
more
leads
and
you
will
be
able
to
uh
,
you
know
get
more
value
out
of
your
website
by
just
being
there
to
answer
questions
from
the
people
that
are
on
your
site
and
there's
massive
value
in
that
.
Speaker 1
2:51
I
mean
,
like
you
said
,
I
saw
a
statistic
the
other
day
that
um
the
drop-off
rate
or
the
bounce
rate
for
a
website
is
something
like
80
or
90
percent
for
a
first-time
visitor
.
Speaker 2
3:04
So
I
guess
you're
you're
you're
solving
a
massive
problem
,
for
I
think
the
issue
is
that
a
lot
of
people
aren't
going
to
pick
up
the
phone
when
they
have
a
question
,
and
a
lot
of
people
like
leave
without
getting
their
questions
answered
,
and
so
,
uh
,
chat
is
a
place
,
uh
,
somewhere
between
you
know
,
leaving
and
making
a
phone
call
.
So
we
just
try
to
lower
that
barrier
to
communicate
,
and
it
turns
out
that
this
benefits
basically
any
business
that
sells
online
.
So
we
have
,
you
know
,
just
sort
of
such
a
wide
range
of
customers
.
But
if
you're
,
if
your
listeners
haven't
haven't
tried
out
chat
,
I
mean
we
have
,
you
know
,
both
a
free
edition
and
a
free
trial
edition
.
So
my
belief
is
basically
,
if
you're
in
the
business
of
trying
to
grow
or
help
your
customers
,
communicating
with
them
is
very
important
,
and
so
chat
is
sort
of
how
we
got
started
in
2009
.
I've
been
really
kind
of
pushing
on
that
,
trying
to
build
a
really
easy
,
affordable
way
of
adding
that
communication
channel
to
your
website
.
Speaker 1
4:03
It's
massive
value
and
,
like
I
said
,
we
only
have
the
best
on
this
,
on
the
Remote
Work
Life
Summit
,
and
that's
,
as
I
said
,
that's
why
I
invited
Ben
and
one
of
the
pioneers
in
this
whole
game
,
so
I
mean
,
there's
so
many
of
them
out
now
,
out
there
now
,
aren't
there
Ben
?
There's
so
many
.
Chat
seems
to
be
a
buzzword
right
now
,
and
sort
of
AI
and
all
that
sort
of
thing
.
Speaker 2
4:29
Yeah
,
I
mean
it
is
very
interesting
.
I
think
right
now
we're
seeing
this
big
revolution
where
a
lot
of
people
think
they
can
replace
all
the
people
that
work
in
their
organizations
and
customer
service
with
some
sort
of
AI
.
I
personally
don't
believe
that's
actually
a
great
idea
.
I
think
that
it
has
a
lot
of
bad
consequences
to
try
to
just
replace
customer
service
with
a
bot
NLP
,
natural
language
processing
is
not
that
great
right
now
.
So
I
think
right
now
a
lot
of
people
just
have
this
idea
in
their
head
that
you
can
just
magically
make
customer
service
automated
and
not
have
to
pay
or
employ
all
these
people
.
Speaker 2
5:09
But
for
me
,
like
at
olark
,
uh
,
our
,
our
philosophy
is
much
more
on
.
Like
,
hey
,
you
have
people
working
your
company
.
If
people
working
customer
service
,
how
can
we
,
with
technology
,
make
those
people
10
times
as
efficient
or
help
those
people
,
uh
,
you
know
,
feel
10
times
as
good
about
,
you
know
,
doing
their
job
every
day
,
going
to
work
every
day
,
and
so
you
know
,
the
interesting
thing
about
remote
work
,
right
,
is
it's
very
easy
to
do
customer
service
remotely
and
that
,
if
you
have
the
right
software
in
place
,
you
can
,
you
know
,
do
that
work
from
your
house
,
on
your
couch
,
you
know
,
after
you
take
your
kids
to
school
before
they
come
back
,
like
it's
a
job
that
really
lends
itself
to
remote
work
,
and
it's
also
a
job
where
I
think
the
human
element
actually
adds
quite
a
bit
of
value
.
So
,
you
know
,
if
I'm
trying
to
buy
a
product
and
I'm
trying
to
buy
a
product
from
a
bot
versus
a
human
being
if
I'm
talking
to
a
bot
,
I
know
I'm
talking
to
a
bot
.
I'm
not
creating
a
relationship
with
this
bot
.
If
I'm
talking
to
a
human
,
though
,
I
think
you
have
the
opportunity
to
build
a
deeper
relationship
and
create
a
relationship
between
that
person
at
your
company
and
that
shopper
.
That
adds
brand
value
,
it
boosts
word-
,
mouth
,
referral
,
it
uh
brings
insight
into
your
organization
,
because
people
are
now
like
communicating
with
customers
,
not
just
,
you
know
,
a
robot
trying
to
deflect
them
.
Speaker 2
6:35
I'm
talking
to
a
human
uh
.
So
,
um
,
from
my
standpoint
,
I'm
I'm
pro
humans
,
I
think
.
I
think
whenever
we're
shopping
,
uh
,
whenever
we're
buying
something
uh
,
we
want
someone
who
understands
what
it's
like
to
be
a
human
and
uh
has
a
range
of
expertise
and
is
not
just
sort
of
a
fixed
script
that
can
answer
,
like
a
like
a
couple
couple
different
questions
yeah
,
and
I
think
you
know
,
I
think
we
joke
about
it
and
we
laugh
about
it
,
but
I
think
even
well
,
I
say
even
customers
who
visit
websites
these
days
,
the
lay
person
who
doesn't
know
anything
about
ai
,
they
know
,
don't
they
?
Speaker 1
7:10
they
know
AI in Business Growth
Speaker 1
7:11
it's
a
robot
.
When
,
when
,
when
,
you
know
when
,
a
automated
sequence
is
sort
of
put
before
them
,
they
already
know
that
,
don't
they
?
Speaker 2
7:19
I
mean
whether
they
know
it
or
not
,
like
if
they
don't
know
it's
,
it
might
even
be
worse
,
because
they
just
think
the
person
they're
dealing
with
is
an
idiot
like
you
know
like
,
like
,
like
.
Speaker 2
7:27
If
they
don't
like
either
the
,
there's
two
outcomes
.
Right
,
the
outcome
is
they
know
it's
a
bot
,
which
means
that
they
know
that
the
company
on
the
other
end
doesn't
necessarily
care
about
them
enough
to
put
a
person
there
to
talk
to
them
,
or
they're
fooled
into
thinking
they're
talking
to
a
human
being
,
and
then
that
human
being
reaches
a
point
where
there's
an
exception
in
that
such
that
,
like
you
know
,
the
script
can't
handle
the
questions
they're
asking
.
Speaker 2
7:51
Yeah
,
and
then
the
person
,
uh
,
then
the
you
know
the
lay
,
the
lay
person
is
just
freaking
confused
because
they
were
having
this
conversation
with
this
great
person
bot
thing
and
all
of
a
sudden
,
like
it
just
doesn't
compute
and
it's
broken
and
I
think
,
uh
,
you
know
if
,
for
any
of
you
who've
had
to
try
to
have
,
like
an
actual
conversation
with
siri
or
now
,
are
these
like
basically
the
best
ais
out
there
,
yeah
,
you
will
know
that
,
uh
,
there's
still
a
lot
of
problems
in
that
technology
and
it's
not
,
it's
not
ready
to
say
like
replace
,
replace
people
.
The
the
best
implemented
bots
I've
seen
are
just
asking
people
a
couple
of
questions
that
are
and
trying
to
qualify
them
for
sending
them
to
a
salesperson
,
like
it's
I
.
I
think
there
is
a
role
for
that
sort
of
uh
tool
,
but
not
but
.
But
I
would
put
put
those
tools
more
on
the
side
of
like
,
hey
,
I
have
more
customers
reaching
out
to
me
than
I
can
possibly
handle
.
Post-sale
,
pre-sale
,
I
think
you
really
want
to
put
the
opportunity
and
the
time
into
building
those
relationships
and
creating
that
brand
connection
.
Speaker 2
8:59
Post-sale
,
I
can
understand
if
you
just
want
to
drive
your
costs
down
,
but
ultimately
,
I
think
there's
a
lot
that
you
get
from
having
those
customer
service
teams
that
things
are
a
little
bit
hard
to
attach
value
to
.
Speaker 2
9:13
For
example
,
if
you
have
a
customer
service
person
on
your
team
answering
questions
,
that
person
actually
is
gaining
quite
a
bit
of
customer
empathy
and
there's
someone
that
can
be
promoted
into
other
roles
within
your
organization
.
Speaker 2
9:26
Remove
that
person
,
replace
them
with
a
bot
and
try
to
hire
junior
people
that
you
want
to
bring
into
your
organization
and
grow
into
more
roles
,
and
you
may
not
have
other
entry-level
positions
that
are
going
to
cause
them
to
have
such
a
high
level
of
customer
empathy
.
So
I
think
there's
just
a
lot
.
There's
a
lot
kind
of
like
wrapped
up
in
this
bot
thing
.
I
don't
need
to
spend
the
whole
interview
talking
about
it
,
but
my
general
philosophy
is
like
hey
,
if
you're
a
small
business
,
you're
probably
.
The
way
that
you
compete
in
this
industry
is
through
the
relationships
,
through
your
personality
and
the
better
job
you
can
do
putting
your
personality
out
there
.
So
the
people
that
are
engaging
with
you
on
your
website
or
meeting
you
on
your
website
,
uh
like
,
build
that
human
connection
like
the
better
off
you're
going
to
be
,
because
you
can't
,
you're
not
going
to
be
able
to
compete
with
the
amazons
and
the
googles
and
the
facebooks
the
world
by
out
automating
them
.
Speaker 2
10:20
I
can
guarantee
you
that
you're
gonna
have
to
out
,
care
them
and
out
human
them
,
and
you
know
that's
.
That's
sort
of
where
olark
sits
in
the
,
in
our
,
in
our
philosophy
,
as
we
sort
of
think
about
,
like
the
,
the
chatbot
revolution
,
to
me
just
like
a
huge
opportunity
for
small
businesses
to
lose
or
to
try
to
save
money
in
a
way
that
causes
them
to
lose
.
What
is
special
about
them
for
their
customers
?
Speaker 1
10:49
No
,
absolutely
,
and
I
think
,
well
,
it's
probably
a
bit
of
an
overemphasis
on
the
whole
aspect
of
AI
and
its
value
from
that
standpoint
.
Even
when
I
was
speaking
to
I
speak
to
derry
anderson
of
um
startup
grind
and
he
was
saying
literally
the
same
thing
as
you
that
it's
all
about
,
you
know
,
building
those
relationships
,
um
,
communication
.
That
that's
that's
human
and
it's
relevant
and
,
you
know
,
is
meaningful
.
That's
what's
going
to
grow
,
grow
a
business
,
that's
what's
good
.
You
know
that
insight
that
you
get
from
those
conversations
right
,
how
,
I
mean
,
you
got
to
a
point
where
this
,
this
was
your
,
this
has
been
your
big
thing
.
Olark
is
your
big
thing
.
How
did
you
get
to
to
the
point
of
knowing
that
olark
is
the
was
the
direction
that
you
wanted
to
take
your
career
that's
a
really
good
question
.
Speaker 2
11:42
I
love
that
question
,
uh
,
you
know
,
I
think
I
I've
done
a
lot
of
interviews
on
this
,
so
I
don't
need
to
like
go
into
a
ton
of
detail
.
But
like
,
if
you
look
at
like
uh
I
don't
know
,
like
uh
there's
a
good
mixer
g
interview
where
I
kind
of
go
into
a
lot
of
detail
.
There's
a
um
,
I
think
groove
hq
has
a
pretty
good
interview
with
me
talking
about
uh
,
sort
of
some
of
the
the
decisions
there
.
I
think
I'll
give
you
like
the
really
short
answer
because
I
don't
want
to
like
spend
the
whole
interview
on
that
stuff
that
will
help
our
audience
out
.
Speaker 2
12:11
You
know
,
yeah
,
yeah
,
sure
I
mean
,
I
think
,
like
,
for
me
,
I
am
not
someone
who
,
like
,
sits
down
and
says
I'm
gonna
,
you
know
,
I'm
gonna
put
a
man
on
the
moon
or
something
like
that
like
I
don't
build
these
really
long-term
plans
Building a Human-Focused Business
Speaker 2
12:27
.
I
think
the
way
that
I
ended
up
running
Olark
and
it
ended
up
being
something
that
was
really
important
to
me
is
just
a
general
philosophy
about
how
I
want
to
start
a
business
.
And
right
when
I
started
this
thing
before
it
was
like
we
might
have
gotten
into
Y
Combinator
maybe
a
little
bit
before
Y
Combinator
,
I
wrote
this
post
and
it
was
basically
a
blog
post
about
how
,
uh
,
what
I
really
wanted
to
do
was
to
build
a
company
where
I
could
hang
out
with
my
friends
,
building
something
amazing
and
helping
people
.
Like
that
was
that's
sort
of
core
to
,
I
think
,
who
I
am
as
a
person
and
like
uh
,
and
I
think
that
prior
to
Olark
,
I
had
another
company
.
It
was
a
web
hosting
company
,
slash
consulting
firm
and
I
was
kind
of
getting
a
little
bit
of
that
need
fulfilled
.
But
then
when
we
started
Olark
and
it
was
just
like
three
or
four
of
us
,
yeah
,
it
was
just
like
a
couple
of
friends
hanging
out
trying
to
make
this
thing
into
reality
.
And
as
we
scaled
and
grown
it
,
I
think
that
dream
has
really
stayed
alive
into
reality
.
And
as
we've
scaled
and
grown
it
,
I
think
that
dream
has
really
stayed
alive
.
Speaker 2
13:34
I
think
,
uh
,
building
this
really
great
team
with
this
really
great
culture
and
tackling
challenges
that
are
important
to
the
world
and
important
to
our
customers
is
a
really
easy
way
to
kind
of
stay
energized
and
want
to
come
to
work
every
day
.
And
I
think
,
like
for
me
anyway
,
there's
this
idea
of
live
chat
,
like
olark
live
chat
,
and
that's
to
me
,
that
is
just
a
piece
,
that
is
a
very
small
piece
of
like
the
total
set
of
problems
that
we're
interested
in
.
Uh
,
it
turned
out
that
,
like
at
the
beginning
,
there
was
this
big
opportunity
to
build
and
kind
of
invent
the
way
that
chat
worked
on
websites
,
right
.
So
,
like
we
sort
of
invented
the
way
that
people
have
grown
to
engage
with
websites
,
and
that's
awesome
.
It's
awesome
to
like
kind
of
invent
something
and
see
it
taken
far
further
than
you
could
even
take
it
,
and
I
think
,
like
that's
sort
of
what
we've
seen
recently
,
with
all
the
new
companies
spawning
up
and
their
new
takes
on
this
and
their
new
approaches
.
Speaker 2
14:27
I
think
that
our
approach
of
being
a
very
human
centric
,
like
kind
of
focusing
on
the
agent
and
growing
them
,
is
going
to
work
for
like
a
lot
of
businesses
,
but
it's
not
going
to
work
for
everyone
.
Like
if
you're
trying
to
drive
costs
all
the
way
down
,
like
you're
going
to
put
some
automation
there
and
you'll
figure
it
out
,
but
we'll
focus
on
the
guys
who
want
sort
of
the
higher
value
from
their
customers
,
like
the
more
valuable
customers
.
But
,
that
said
,
I
think
what
I've
realized
over
the
years
is
really
the
thing
that
makes
me
very
excited
is
this
idea
of
making
business
human
,
so
both
the
idea
of
sort
of
helping
businesses
connect
with
each
other
as
people
,
as
humans
,
and
then
also
building
software
that
kind
of
emphasizes
what
people
do
really
well
.
So
uh
,
uh
,
you
know
there's
a
lot
of
technologists
who
build
software
,
uh
,
because
they
love
technology
and
they
love
to
just
like
build
this
cool
tech
.
I
think
it
all
like
we've
really
like
the
thing
that
we're
excited
about
is
like
helping
people
and
so
like
the
cool
tech
is
just
like
a
way
in
which
we
can
help
people
and
uh
,
uh
,
you
know
,
if
you
think
about
the
org
we've
built
and
our
set
of
values
,
uh
,
that
that's
sort
of
what
I'm
excited
about
.
I'm
like
excited
about
sort
of
giving
value
systems
to
more
businesses
so
they
can
build
cultures
,
uh
,
that
really
care
about
their
employees
or
,
you
know
,
giving
value
systems
to
make
remote
work
easier
for
other
people
to
adopt
,
like
if
we
can
hand
you
a
handbook
and
you
can
take
remote
work
and
you
can
make
it
work
.
And
you
can
make
it
work
the
way
we
did
,
because
I
think
that
our
team
feels
very
empowered
,
our
team
cares
a
ton
about
where
they
work
and
they
feel
absolutely
trusted
,
and
I
think
maybe
Olark
isn't
ourselves
as
a
business
is
not
going
to
scale
to
employ
every
remote
worker
.
But
heck
if
we
can
give
some
guidance
to
to
scale
to
employ
every
remote
worker
,
but
heck
if
we
can
give
some
guidance
to
those
other
companies
employing
remote
workers
.
Uh
,
I
think
that
would
be
a
really
great
way
to
make
impact
and
to
make
more
businesses
more
human
and
more
caring
,
uh
.
So
,
yeah
,
there's
a
it's
,
I
guess
,
like
your
.
Speaker 2
16:25
Your
original
question
how
did
I
arrive
here
?
I
started
off
,
uh
,
just
wanting
a
place
where
I
could
hang
off
with
my
friends
building
cool
stuff
,
and
then
I
realized
that
I
sort
of
wanted
to
figure
out
how
you
could
scale
that
and
bring
that
to
more
people
who
weren't
just
working
at
Olark
.
Our
lever
is
we're
pretty
good
at
building
products
and
we're
pretty
good
at
thinking
big
and
empowering
teams
,
and
as
long
as
I
can
keep
doing
that
,
I'm
having
a
good
time
,
so
uh
,
sounds
good
to
me
,
sounds
good
to
me
and
well
,
I
love
a
lot
of
making
notes
,
by
the
way
,
as
you're
talking
,
so
so
I'm
remembering
all
these
questions
I've
got
.
Speaker 1
17:03
The
more
you're
talking
,
the
more
questions
that
are
coming
to
my
mind
.
So
,
but
that
you
talk
about
,
um
,
you
know
about
the
software
being
just
a
part
of
the
actual
grand
scheme
of
things
.
Transition to Remote Work
Speaker 1
17:15
But
you
mentioned
remote
work
.
Was
remote
work
something
that
was
putting
together
a
remote
team
,
something
a
deliberate
part
of
that
whole
plan
of
yours
?
Speaker 2
17:23
Yeah
,
it's
funny
,
right
,
because
we're
known
as
this
remote
company
.
We
get
so
many
job
applicants
for
our
positions
.
It's
amazing
,
remote
company
like
we
get
like
so
many
job
applicants
for
our
position
,
it's
like
amazing
.
But
like
,
at
the
beginning
,
in
the
early
days
of
this
thing
,
I
had
run
a
remote
company
prior
.
So
my
web
hosting
company
I
ran
prior
to
this
was
remote
.
Speaker 2
17:41
And
uh
,
for
olark
,
we're
thinking
about
trying
something
different
.
We're
gonna
,
we're
going
to
build
a
non-remote
company
.
And
that
worked
basically
up
until
we
tried
to
hire
our
first
employee
and
we
had
no
money
.
And
so
we
,
uh
,
we
were
in
silicon
valley
,
we
didn't
raise
any
money
we
couldn't
afford
to
get
.
I
guess
we
did
have
one
guy
working
for
us
for
a
bit
,
but
then
he
left
because
people
were
paying
way
better
than
we
could
,
even
though
he
loved
us
,
like
,
but
but
we
just
like
literally
couldn't
afford
to
pay
people
,
uh
,
what
they
needed
to
make
in
that
area
,
uh
,
and
so
we
hired
a
college
friend
of
mine
as
employee
number
one
who
was
living
in
a
much
cheaper
area
and
I
knew
he
was
solid
,
I
knew
he'd
be
a
great
teammate
,
um
,
and
so
we
,
we
took
away
.
He
had
like
an
hour
commute
,
like
maybe
a
two-hour
commute
every
.
He
took
that
away
.
He
got
to
work
from
home
.
Uh
,
changed
his
life
and
uh
,
and
even
then
,
even
then
we
weren't
ready
to
go
remote
.
Speaker 2
18:36
We're
still
like
,
oh
well
,
you
know
,
we'll
make
acceptance
here
and
there
,
but
like
,
we
really
just
don't
want
to
be
remote
.
So
we
built
out
kind
of
a
customer
service
team
in
house
,
like
at
like
in
California
,
uh
,
and
then
we
tried
to
hire
marketing
.
We're
like
,
oh
,
we
can't
find
anyone
for
marketing
,
oh
,
there's
this
guy
in
Toronto
,
we'll
hire
him
.
We're
like
,
oh
no
,
but
we're
still
remote
.
We're
still
not
remote
.
We
were
like
,
keep
,
kind
of
like
.
Then
one
co-founder
moved
to
Ann
Arbor
,
michigan
.
We're
like
,
okay
,
we'll
have
two
offices
,
we'll
have
one
office
in
California
,
we'll
have
one
office
in
California
,
one
office
in
our
mission
,
and
we'll
have
these
a
couple
of
exceptions
kicking
around
their
working
mode
,
but
for
the
most
part
we're
going
to
be
an
old
school
bricks
and
mortar
company
.
Speaker 2
19:17
And
then
we're
trying
to
hire
for
DevOps
and
we
were
having
the
hardest
.
They
were
like
we
want
DevOps
in
an
East
Coast
time
zone
so
that
they'll
be
closer
to
Europe
,
and
we
want
them
in
Ann
Arbor
because
that's
where
it
would
make
sense
,
based
on
where
we
are
,
where
everyone's
located
,
and
we
try
to
hire
for
this
position
.
And
by
this
point
we
had
a
couple
of
people
in
our
Ann
Arbor
office
,
a
couple
of
people
in
San
Francisco
.
I
think
we
may
have
only
had
.
We
probably
had
two
,
maybe
two
remote
employees
at
that
time
and
at
that
point
I
looked
forever
trying
to
hire
someone
like
for
DevOps
in
Michigan
.
And
we
found
this
guy
in
Brooklyn
and
he
was
like
oh
yeah
,
I'm
thinking
about
moving
somewhere
.
Maybe
,
maybe
I
can
move
to
Michigan
.
We're
like
,
oh
,
that's
good
enough
,
we'll
hire
this
guy
.
Speaker 2
20:03
And
after
that
hiring
process
we're
just
like
screw
it
,
like
we're
going
to
hire
remote
.
We
can
get
really
good
people
remote
.
We're
not
going
to
care
about
where
they're
located
.
Uh
,
we
spent
like
way
too
long
trying
to
make
that
hire
and
I
think
,
uh
,
that
was
the
real
moment
for
me
where
it
where
remote
had
gone
from
like
,
oh
,
this
is
kind
of
like
a
bonus
,
like
if
we
find
really
good
people
and
they
don't
want
to
move
,
we
can
hire
them
remote
.
It's
like
,
no
,
we're
just
to
focus
remote
from
here
on
out
and
we
may
find
people
in
offices
or
not
,
but
we're
not
going
to
put
that
restriction
on
where
they
are
.
Speaker 2
20:41
Now
,
for
the
most
part
,
that's
true
.
I
think
there
was
one
position
where
we
were
hiring
it
and
we
wanted
it
to
be
in
San
Francisco
because
it
was
a
design
position
and
the
person
who
was
going
to
work
with
it
really
wanted
to
collaborate
in
person
.
That
was
a
co-founder
of
mine
,
but
he's
no
longer
with
the
company
.
So
that
was
the
last
position
we
posted
that
actually
had
a
location
on
it
and
that
was
a
couple
of
years
ago
and
from
there
on
out
we're
pre-remote
.
But
actually
this
year
we
still
have
a
lease
on
an
empty
office
in
Michigan
.
Speaker 1
21:14
Oh
my
gosh
.
Speaker 2
21:18
If
anyone
has
an
empty
office
in
Michigan
,
we
totally
got
your
office
Huge
discount
on
rent
,
excellent
.
But
that
lease
runs
out
,
I
think
,
in
March
.
Speaker 1
21:27
But
we
basically
will
have
no
physical
locations
at
the
end
of
uh
,
by
March
of
next
year
so
as
of
March
next
year
,
would
be
a
hundred
percent
remote
company
with
well
,
I
mean
in
the
sense
like
we've
all
been
a
hundred
.
Speaker 2
21:39
So
we're
still
this
lease
we're
paying
for
for
an
office
.
No
one
went
to
,
but
yeah
,
so
that
that's
been
happening
for
a
while
.
I
mean
we've
been
I
would
argue
we've
probably
been
100
remote
,
remote
for
many
years
.
We
just
rented
some
empty
office
space
that
people
would
occasionally
show
up
to
.
Speaker 1
21:56
And
you
mentioned
your
team
.
You
were
talking
about
your
team
,
Ben
DevOps
,
customer
service
.
What's
the
breakdown
?
Are
there
more
elements
to
your
team
?
I'm
sure
there
are
.
Speaker 2
22:06
Well
,
I
mean
,
it's
a
standard
software
company
,
right
?
So
you
have
marketing
.
We
never
really
built
out
sales
because
our
price
point
was
more
turnkey
.
You
know
really
big
customer
service
team
.
We
invested
very
strongly
in
customer
service
.
I
think
our
belief
is
that
customer
service
sort
of
does
sales
,
sort
of
does
customer
success
,
and
generally
these
are
the
people
that
kind
of
live
and
breathe
the
passion
in
your
company
all
the
time
.
So
finding
really
good
people
there
is
excellent
.
And
then
you
know
engineering
product
team
just
normal
,
I
guess
.
Pms
,
designers
I
don't
think
there's
anything
abnormal
about
the
way
all
architecture
.
Speaker 1
22:47
But
yeah
,
I
suppose
you'd
expect
that
customer
service
would
be
a
an
important
,
important
part
of
your
company
yeah
,
I
think
part
of
that
is
interesting
.
Speaker 2
22:55
I
think
part
of
the
reason
we
went
so
hard
on
customer
service
at
the
beginning
is
that
when
I'd
ran
the
web
hosting
company
prior
,
we
had
under
invested
in
customer
service
and
it
had
caused
problems
and
uh
,
what
basically
happened
is
like
the
owners
were
doing
all
the
service
and
we
hired
staff
to
do
customer
service
for
us
,
which
was
just
some
college
buddies
looking
for
part-time
jobs
and
those
guys
just
really
didn't
do
as
good
of
a
job
as
we
had
done
and
didn't
care
as
much
as
we
did
.
And
so
I
think
that
,
well
,
actually
,
in
the
early
days
of
like
,
we
all
did
customer
service
.
So
we
did
a
rotation
where
every
person
on
the
team
would
do
customer
service
,
uh
like
one
day
a
week
or
a
couple
hours
a
week
or
whatever
.
And
then
,
uh
,
eventually
,
when
we
decided
,
uh
,
even
when
we
hired
a
customer
service
team
,
we
still
kept
doing
that
where
everyone
the
team
would
go
around
do
it
.
Speaker 2
23:50
And
it
wasn't
until
until
a
couple
years
in
that
we
decided
operationally
we
needed
to
take
all-hand
support
,
which
was
operationally
,
which
meant
everyone
on
the
team
was
doing
customer
service
.
We
wanted
that
to
no
longer
be
a
requirement
.
We
wanted
it
to
be
so
that
the
customer
service
team
could
handle
all
the
customer
service
load
and
it
was
a
bonus
if
other
people
went
and
did
their
all-hands
support
shifts
.
So
that
transition
happened
over
a
couple
of
years
,
probably
Just
sort
of
going
from
having
everyone
do
customer
service
as
part
of
their
job
,
where
it
was
needed
for
them
to
do
it
,
to
where
everyone
did
customer
service
optionally
,
just
because
,
like
we
had
built
this
culture
where
everyone
did
customer
service
and
they
could
hop
on
and
,
like
you
know
,
dog
,
through
the
new
release
they
made
,
or
just
see
how
customers
were
reacting
to
something
by
hopping
on
to
chat
and
just
doing
a
support
shift
and
you
mentioned
earlier
that
you
get
lots
of
applications
,
right
,
um
,
what
for
you
?
Speaker 1
24:52
not
for
that
?
Sorry
,
okay
,
yeah
,
that's
all
right
.
I
was
just
um
,
you're
saying
that
you
get
lots
of
applications
and
well
,
yeah
,
that
doesn't
really
surprise
me
.
Um
,
what
we
thought
with
that
being
bombed
,
you
know
,
with
you
being
bombarded
,
applications
,
what
,
what
really
stands
out
for
you
,
or
what
,
how
can
somebody
really
stand
out
if
they
are
applying
to
you
,
either
to
a
job
that
is
um
posted
or
a
speculative
application
?
Speaker 2
25:20
yeah
,
that's
a
really
good
question
.
So
I
used
to
run
hiring
for
a
while
,
but
we
hired
someone
,
uh
,
who
is
so
much
,
so
much
better
than
I
am
at
it
that
it's
fantastic
.
So
Mandy
is
probably
the
person
who
could
best
answer
that
question
.
Speaker 2
25:35
But
I
could
try
to
give
you
a
sense
for
it
.
So
to
get
in
the
door
,
you
have
to
understand
that
it's
a
pretty
competitive
process
.
So
,
whatever
position
you're
applying
for
,
just
assume
that
we're
going
to
get
a
lot
of
applicants
for
it
.
Hiring Process at Olark
Speaker 2
25:51
So
put
in
the
time
.
You
know
,
polish
your
resume
.
We
normally
ask
pre-screening
questions
at
the
beginning
.
Put
in
the
time
,
like
,
don't
just
like
go
to
our
website
and
just
see
these
pre-screening
questions
and
just
kind
of
like
knock
out
answers
really
quick
.
Take
the
time
to
take
those
pre-screening
questions
,
put
them
in
a
Doc
,
write
good
answers
to
them
,
get
your
friends
to
give
you
feedback
.
You
could
even
probably
us
and
ask
for
feedback
on
some
of
those
pre-screening
questions
too
.
I
bet
Mandy
would
probably
give
you
a
little
bit
of
time
,
probably
a
few
sentences
on
something
.
Take
the
time
.
We
have
chat
on
our
website
.
You
can
stop
by
.
You
can
ask
questions
there
.
I
think
.
Speaker 2
26:41
Generally
speaking
,
to
get
an
interview
,
to
just
get
past
a
resume
screen
one
,
you've
got
to
have
a
resume
and
a
set
of
answers
to
our
screening
questions
.
That
makes
sense
,
right
?
Like
,
even
if
you're
the
most
passionate
person
in
the
world
,
you're
probably
like
,
we
have
enough
applicants
.
There's
lots
of
passionate
people
in
that
applicant
pool
.
So
,
like
we
can't
,
we
can't
let
one
one
passionate
person
who's
done
like
all
this
extra
work
,
who's
not
qualified
,
is
probably
not
going
to
make
it
through
.
I
mean
,
every
once
in
a
while
we'll
wildcard
someone
.
So
if
you
went
out
and
did
something
crazy
,
like
built
something
cool
with
our
api
or
like
create
a
video
,
or
just
kind
of
went
so
like
kind
of
over
the
top
other
,
over
other
applicants
,
you
probably
would
stand
out
and
,
like
you
probably
get
interviewed
.
Like
basically
,
our
hiring
process
is
kind
of
like
standard
and
we'll
wildcard
people
every
once
in
a
while
just
to
get
them
into
the
,
into
the
funnel
,
because
sometimes
those
people
can
be
amazing
.
But
generally
speaking
,
you
know
,
having
resume
and
the
answer
to
our
screening
questions
is
the
way
to
do
it
and
if
you
want
to
,
you
know
if
you
can
wow
us
some
way
that
we
haven't
seen
before
,
you'll
probably
get
an
interview
.
Uh
,
but
like
during
that
interview
,
if
you're
not
qualified
to
do
the
job
,
like
you
can
spend
lots
of
time
doing
something
awesome
and
then
just
like
bomb
the
interviews
.
You'll
get
found
out
.
But
,
like
you
know
,
like
that
might
help
you
in
the
future
when
you're
applying
for
another
job
that
you
are
qualified
for
,
because
you
know
we'll
remember
that
being
wild
that
one
time
.
So
,
anyway
,
yeah
,
so
that's
how
you
get
a
phone
call
and
then
,
once
you
get
the
phone
call
,
mandy
would
probably
screen
to
make
sure
that
you
were
,
like
I
said
,
generally
qualified
for
a
position
,
you
understand
what
it
was
and
could
communicate
clearly
with
us
.
Speaker 2
28:30
And
then
for
most
of
our
positions
we
have
homework
that
we
give
you
.
We'll
say
,
hey
,
go
do
this
work
for
us
and
we'll
generally
give
you
an
Amazon
gift
card
or
something
like
that
in
exchange
,
because
we
know
this
stuff
takes
time
.
So
after
someone
does
the
homework
,
we'll
read
over
every
single
homework
that
comes
in
and
if
you
get
to
homework
stage
,
it
means
you
get
a
shot
getting
the
job
.
Basically
we
don't
give
.
Basically
at
every
phase
we're
cutting
people
out
.
We
only
want
to
basically
be
looking
at
people
who
could
potentially
be
hired
.
There's
no
,
oh
,
we're
feeling
nice
,
we
don't
do
that
at
all
.
It's
all
like
very
,
very
scientific
,
like
if
you're
doing
work
for
us
,
you
get
a
shot
at
getting
it
and
so
,
um
,
we
turn
people
down
as
early
in
the
process
as
we
think
,
uh
,
as
we
can
,
just
so
no
one
was
wasting
any
other
time
,
uh
,
and
you
know
,
do
the
homework
.
We'll
evaluate
the
homework
and
generally
have
sort
of
a
like
we
call
them
technical
interviews
,
but
they're
basically
like
reviewing
the
homework
plus
like
kind
of
diving
into
sort
of
technical
skills
required
for
the
job
.
And
then
after
that
we
do
a
culture
interview
,
which
is
where
,
uh
,
you
know
,
assuming
at
that
point
,
we
assume
basically
you
can
do
the
job
,
you
pass
the
technical
interview
,
you
can
do
the
job
,
you
pass
the
technical
interview
,
you
can
do
the
job
.
Speaker 2
29:53
The
culture
interview
,
um
,
uh
,
is
where
we
talk
about
our
values
,
because
olak
is
a
very
values
driven
company
.
I
love
that
,
yeah
,
uh
,
we
want
,
we
don't
,
we're
not
like
looking
for
people
that
look
that
fit
any
individual
mold
but
,
uh
,
generally
speaking
,
the
people
that
get
hired
at
Olark
are
engaged
on
some
level
with
our
values
.
They
can't
view
company
values
as
bullshit
,
and
that
would
come
across
in
the
cultural
interview
.
You
have
to
be
bought
into
what
we're
trying
to
do
at
the
company
and
then
we'll
give
you
an
opportunity
to
talk
about
the
value
that
you
feel
like
will
be
the
best
at
exemplifying
,
the
value
you
think
you'd
be
the
worst
at
exemplifying
,
and
have
a
real
conversation
.
If
that
goes
well
,
we'll
take
the
best
couple
of
people
from
that
round
and
we'll
bring
them
in
and
have
them
work
remotely
for
us
,
uh
,
for
a
day
,
and
we'll
pay
them
for
the
whole
day
,
a
consulting
rate
and
,
uh
,
you
know
,
basically
give
you
a
day
in
the
life
working
at
olark
and
if
you
,
you
ace
that
,
you
get
a
job
bingo
.
Speaker 1
31:08
Is
it
easy
as
that
?
Hey
,
no
problem
.
No
,
it's
,
it's
good
,
it's
great
.
I
mean
,
there's
quite
a
lot
there
.
I
mean
I'd
love
to
.
Can
you
give
us
any
clues
as
to
what's
in
the
homework
at
all
?
Speaker 2
31:20
I
mean
it's
gonna
specifically
the
job
role
.
Speaker 2
31:22
I
mean
just
a
mat
like
,
if
you're
like
a
director
of
marketing
which
you've
recently
been
hiring
,
like
your
homework
looked
like
.
Here's
a
bunch
of
data
that's
not
necessarily
exactly
olark's
data
but
is
like
close
enough
to
give
you
a
sense
for
what
the
job
will
be
like
.
Give
us
your
like
90
day
plan
and
your
180
day
plan
and
,
uh
,
state
any
assumptions
that
you
need
.
Any
questions
you
need
answered
like
a
pretty
,
like
thoughtful
kind
of
assignment
.
But
that's
for
more
of
a
higher
level
For
a
CS
person
.
Actually
,
I'm
not
sure
what
the
homework
looks
like
there
.
My
guess
is
that
,
if
it's
been
iterated
on
a
long
time
since
I
worked
on
the
hiring
process
,
but
probably
in
the
early
days
what
we
would
do
is
give
you
a
like
a
couple
of
example
customer
situations
and
have
you
sort
of
write
the
emails
that
you
would
write
back
to
them
and
or
maybe
that
type
of
thing
.
Speaker 1
32:16
And
you
talked
about
the
culture
element
of
the
of
the
interview
.
How
do
you
cause
it's
?
It's
really
,
it's
quite
difficult
,
I
think
,
to
actually
convey
culture
or
to
kind
of
express
it
so
it
doesn't
sound
contrived
.
Speaker 2
32:32
You
know
how
do
you
do
that
well
,
I
think
in
our
case
uh
,
yeah
,
you
raise
a
good
point
.
I
think
that
a
lot
of
people's
like
there
there's
this
old
term
or
culture
fits
like
oh
,
like
if
someone
was
on
the
in
the
office
on
friday
,
you'd
go
grab
a
beer
with
them
,
or
something
like
that
,
and
I
think
that
that
is
actually
like
a
pretty
dumb
,
like
pretty
stupid
way
of
looking
at
culture
.
I
think
that
that's
a
good
way
of
determining
if
someone
should
be
in
your
frat
,
maybe
,
or
if
,
like
they
want
,
or
like
if
this
person
might
be
your
friend
yeah
,
but
like
you're
not
.
Speaker 2
33:04
You're
not
trying
to
hire
for
friends
necessarily
,
right
,
like
yeah
,
I
mean
,
ideally
you
can
get
along
with
like
most
people
,
so
like
anyone
can
be
your
friend
,
but
like
you're
not
trying
to
like
optimize
for
this
is
like
the
most
likely
to
be
my
friend
kind
of
person
.
So
,
uh
,
it
all
like
our
culture
and
views
of
over
of
uh
,
you
have
evolved
over
time
.
Hiring Strategies and Interview Tips
Speaker 2
33:28
In
the
early
days
we
cared
a
lot
about
conflict
styles
because
when
you're
working
remotely
it's
harder
to
assess
whether
you're
doing
all
right
if
you
are
not
prone
to
conflict
.
If
you're
a
conflict
avoider
,
it's
easier
for
you
to
have
conflict
and
not
talk
about
it
and
not
deal
with
it
.
So
,
uh
,
in
some
of
our
earlier
interviews
we
would
ask
kind
of
like
some
conflict
related
questions
and
try
to
understand
,
uh
,
how
,
how
people
would
deal
with
conflict
like
,
uh
,
you
know
,
like
looking
,
looking
at
unresolved
conflict
was
always
a
red
flag
.
I
don't
think
that's
in
our
current
batch
of
.
We
probably
do
that
in
a
more
indirect
way
now
.
I
think
I
kind
of
alluded
to
this
a
bit
.
Speaker 2
34:17
We
give
people
the
opportunity
to
review
our
values
.
There's
a
lot
written
about
them
on
our
website
and
you
can
read
.
You
know
,
just
search
the
internet
,
olark
values
there's
stuff
that
comes
up
all
over
the
place
and
we
want
people
who
,
you
know
,
kind
of
take
time
to
understand
what
we're
about
and
most
job
candidates
at
that
stage
understand
what
we're
about
.
And
the
way
that
we
look
at
culture
fit
is
we
have
our
champs
,
core
values
,
right
,
chill
,
uh
,
help
each
other
,
assume
good
faith
,
make
it
happen
,
practice
empathy
and
speak
your
mind
,
and
so
,
uh
,
we
look
for
people
that
who
want
,
who
value
those
same
attributes
,
and
so
on
the
culture
interview
,
we
look
at
how
you
communicate
about
those
values
and
the
things
that
you
say
and
the
questions
you
ask
us
,
how
you
engage
.
Speaker 2
35:21
Generally
,
I'd
say
most
people
do
.
Really
it's
not
that
hard
of
an
interview
to
pass
,
but
you'd
be
surprised
at
how
many
people
like
it
turns
out
it's
just
not
a
good
fit
Because
you
know
you're
interviewing
each
other
right
,
and
you
know
our
company's
not
for
everyone
and
,
uh
,
it's
,
you
know
it's
a
chance
for
,
uh
,
you
know
there's
people
that
are
considering
working
at
Allark
to
like
ask
questions
of
the
people
that
they
work
at
Allark
,
of
course
,
and
see
,
see
how
,
see
how
it
feels
,
you
know
.
So
,
uh
,
I
mean
,
um
,
you
can
think
of
it
as
kind
of
like
a
thoughtful
discussion
about
our
values
.
Is
is
a
way
of
looking
at
our
the
culture
interviews
and
expecting
some
self-reflection
from
the
candidate
.
Speaker 1
36:07
I
think
a
lot
of
people
struggle
with
that
.
Actually
,
ben
,
in
terms
of
that
,
you
mentioned
that
it's
a
conversation
,
that
interviews
are
conversation
,
a
two-way
flow
of
information
.
I
think
a
lot
of
people
believe
that
you
know
,
or
struggle
in
some
way
to
actually
ask
a
question
in
return
to
something
that
you
might
have
asked
them
.
If
you
see
what
I
mean
,
they
think
that
they
need
to
leave
all
the
questions
to
the
end
and
it's
.
You
know
,
it's
.
Speaker 2
36:29
It's
kind
of
an
old-school
way
of
looking
at
it
yeah
,
I
mean
I
think
that
is
a
just
a
challenge
,
right
,
because
interviews
are
socially
constructed
and
people
kind
of
have
a
way
in
which
they
expect
them
to
work
,
and
I
mean
I
think
I
think
that's
okay
.
I
mean
,
in
our
interviews
we
probably
have
some
prompts
for
them
to
ask
those
questions
.
So
like
it's
not
like
we're
,
it's
like
a
conversation
where
we're
giving
you
the
floor
right
To
go
talk
.
Speaker 2
36:53
And
then
those
questions
at
the
end
,
you
know
.
I
mean
you
mentioned
,
like
a
lot
of
people
say
about
questions
at
the
end
.
Well
,
certainly
those
questions
at
the
end
are
super
freaking
,
important
in
hiring
.
So
I
mean
,
if
you
are
a
candidate
,
right
like
,
make
sure
you
have
some
good
questions
.
Speaker 1
37:10
Of
course
.
Speaker 2
37:11
You
can
go
make
a
list
of
questions
before
you
walk
into
the
interview
,
like
,
honestly
,
because
,
like
you
know
who
you're
meeting
with
,
you
can
look
them
up
on
LinkedIn
.
You
are
about
like
you're
trying
to
work
at
this
place
for
at
least
a
couple
of
years
.
You
better
have
,
like
this
is
a
thoughtful
process
and
you
better
have
some
thoughtful
questions
to
bring
into
this
,
like
even
if
you
already
know
the
answers
,
like
just
confirm
you
actually
know
the
answer
,
because
sometimes
people
don't
give
you
the
answer
you're
expecting
.
Speaker 1
37:46
And
I
think
on
top
of
that
,
well
,
a
lot
of
people
it's
not
just
,
I
suppose
,
the
interview
process
,
but
even
when
it
comes
to
applying
you
get
obviously
I'm
sure
you've
seen
this
a
lot
of
people
are
just
really
spraying
and
praying
and
sort
of
sending
out
their
resume
here
and
hoping
that
one
of
them
will
stick
,
and
not
necessarily
reading
what's
on
the
website
,
the
values
,
and
connecting
their
values
in
their
application
or
their
interview
with
with
yours
in
many
ways
,
so
they're
clearly
not
sort
of
read
and
understood
everything
.
Speaker 2
38:17
Yeah
,
it's
hard
,
I
think
it's
.
It's
definitely
hard
as
a
candidate
to
uh
to
find
the
right
place
.
I
mean
,
I
think
just
looking
at
our
candidate
pool
right
,
there's
probably
many
,
many
people
that
could
do
the
job
when
300
people
apply
and
our
process
isn't
perfect
.
We're
not
necessarily
trying
to
get
the
best
person
out
of
the
process
,
because
to
get
the
best
person
you
might
need
a
process
that
takes
longer
than
is
business
feasible
.
What
you're
trying
to
get
is
a
candidate
in
the
top
5%
or
so
,
and
so
you
have
to
imagine
that
hiring
processes
are
designed
both
for
the
candidate
and
for
the
company
.
The
company
needs
to
fill
the
position
at
some
speed
,
or
else
they
wouldn't
have
posted
the
position
,
and
so
everyone's
trying
to
come
up
with
the
optimal
way
of
getting
like
sort
of
the
best
result
they
can
in
a
fixed
amount
of
time
and
a
fixed
amount
of
effort
.
And
from
a
job
candidate
perspective
,
I
think
the
spray
and
pray
strategy
is
probably
not
an
optimal
strategy
for
what
you're
trying
to
do
Now
.
Speaker 2
39:28
There's
a
lot
of
factors
at
play
in
what
the
optimal
strategy
might
be
for
you
.
I
mean
,
if
you
have
a
killer
resume
,
for
example
,
then
probably
you
can
just
pick
a
couple
of
companies
and
reach
out
to
them
and
talk
to
them
and
they'll
more
or
less
interview
you
and
you
can
interview
them
.
If
you
don't
have
a
killer
resume
,
then
you're
in
a
tougher
situation
and
you
have
to
.
You
know
,
I
think
one
thing
that
good
hiring
managers
will
do
is
when
you
reach
out
to
a
company
and
just
figure
out
who
their
HR
recruiter
people
are
,
just
set
up
an
they're
called
informational
interviews
.
Just
talk
to
those
people
and
understand
what
they're
looking
for
and
if
your
set
of
skills
is
not
great
or
not
perfect
for
that
job
and
that's
in
your
mind
,
this
is
like
the
perfect
job
for
you
.
Speaker 2
40:19
I
think
a
good
thing
to
do
is
to
ask
the
hiring
manager
like
hey
,
I
know
I
eventually
want
to
end
.
Is
to
ask
the
hiring
manager
like
,
hey
,
like
you
know
,
I
know
I
eventually
want
to
end
up
here
,
but
like
,
what
do
you
think
I
should
be
doing
at
this
point
in
my
career
?
That's
going
to
help
me
get
here
,
get
there
in
the
future
,
and
I
think
that
if
you
can
build
that
plan
a
few
steps
out
,
it
makes
it
more
tractable
to
,
you
know
,
end
up
at
those
places
that
you're
really
excited
to
end
up
at
,
rather
than
just
like
,
oh
,
I'm
going
to
spray
and
pray
and
I'm
just
going
to
end
up
at
,
rather
than
just
like
,
oh
,
I'm
going
to
spray
and
pray
and
I'm
just
going
to
end
up
like
wherever
I
can
right
now
.
I
think
if
you
had
a
little
bit
more
intentionality
around
it
,
you
could
be
like
you
know
what
I
should
be
doing
right
now
.
Speaker 2
40:51
I
should
be
going
back
to
school
because
,
like
I
need
to
have
like
X
and
a
Y
,
or
I
need
to
go
find
like
a
company
that
has
a
really
good
training
program
or
something
like
that
,
so
that
I
can
add
that
to
my
resume
,
so
that
when
I
show
up
for
the
next
interview
,
like
I
will
have
really
great
answers
for
those
four
questions
that
I'm
you
know
,
just
literally
,
I
just
didn't
know
those
things
and
do
you
tend
,
ben
to
hire
um
more
experienced
candidates
,
or
do
you
like
to
nurture
,
or
is
it
just
a
mixture
of
it's
?
Speaker 2
41:21
it's
such
a
it's
.
I
like
hiring
for
uh
,
aptitude
.
I
like
smart
people
,
I
like
people
who
show
that
they
can
learn
,
and
we
basically
do
our
best
to
ignore
resume
after
you
pass
resume
screen
,
so
like
we
tend
to
not
show
people
people's
resume
later
in
the
process
because
,
from
our
standpoint
,
once
you
pass
resume
screen
,
you've
passed
resume
screen
,
so
we
feel
like
you
can
do
the
job
.
Speaker 2
41:50
Once
you
pass
technical
interview
,
you
pass
,
like
you
know
,
your
technical
skills
are
good
enough
,
and
now
it's
just
how
you
perform
during
the
interviews
.
Like
that's
.
That's
the
way
that
we
sort
of
do
it
like
,
and
,
like
I
said
,
we
try
to
narrow
that
down
as
you
go
through
the
process
because
,
like
,
we
don't
,
we
don't
want
,
like
,
a
lot
of
people
hanging
out
in
the
process
and
limbo
,
who
couldn't
,
who
wouldn't
get
the
job
if
they
didn't
,
like
excel
at
the
next
step
,
and
so
,
uh
,
yeah
,
we
have
a
lot
of
like
really
.
I
mean
,
we're
a
relatively
small
company
,
right
,
but
we
have
,
uh
,
you
know
,
there's
an
engineer
who
works
at
olark
who
has
a
master's
degree
in
social
work
.
Uh
,
we
have
a
lot
of
people
who
,
uh
,
either
don't
have
like
,
who
have
non-standard
college
degrees
some
people
didn't
graduate
from
college
like
we
try
to
uh
,
uh
,
you
know
other
other
experiences
substitute
for
schooling
.
Like
,
we
have
a
lot
of
smart
people
.
We
have
some
smart
people
who
have
really
frigging
good
resumes
.
We
have
some
smart
people
who
have
horrible
resumes
.
Speaker 2
42:56
After
you
add
Oleg
on
there
,
their
resume
is
fantastic
.
When
hired
,
their
resume
might
not
have
looked
that
great
for
some
of
the
positions
we
were
going
,
so
,
at
least
for
us
,
we
were
always
willing
to
look
a
little
bit
past
what
school
you
went
to
or
what
degree
your
college
was
in
,
or
if
you
went
to
college
and
stuff
like
that
.
I
love
that
.
And
on
the
position
basis
,
I
mean
it
just
depends
on
the
position
basis
.
Uh
,
I
mean
it
just
depends
on
the
position
.
I
mean
,
if
we're
hiring
for
a
senior
position
,
it's
more
.
We're
more
likely
to
look
at
experience
.
Or
,
like
you
know
,
if
you're
have
less
experience
and
you're
applying
for
a
junior
position
,
you're
gonna
have
to
work
harder
to
prove
to
us
that
you
have
the
expertise
.
But
you're
gonna
be
asked
because
you're
gonna
be
asked
the
exact
same
question
as
a
person
who
has
more
experience
.
Speaker 1
43:47
Do
you
have
?
Like
I
mean
,
obviously
the
core
of
your
business
is
communication
and
you
know
,
like
I
said
before
,
like
you
said
before
,
building
relationships
.
How
do
you
,
I
don't
know
,
how
do
you
,
I
don't
know
?
Obviously
the
interview
will
give
you
a
good
steer
as
to
sort
of
how
the
person
listens
,
et
cetera
,
and
that
sort
of
thing
.
But
are
there
any
other
indicators
to
you
of
somebody
who
could
be
really
good
in
your
customer
service
team
,
for
example
?
Speaker 2
44:16
Well
,
I
think
the
interesting
thing
about
the
interview
right
is
remote
communication
,
Like
,
for
example
,
homework
is
written
,
the
application
is
written
,
the
communication
with
Mandy
who
runs
hiring
is
all
written
.
So
we're
evaluating
your
communication
as
well
as
throughout
the
interview
,
right
,
it's
a
mix
of
written
and
verbal
communication
throughout
the
whole
process
and
so
that
does
tell
us
stuff
.
Especially
when
we
do
a
day-in-the-life
working
day
,
We'll
understand
how
people
are
going
to
engage
with
their
coworkers
and
their
communication
styles
Future Plans for Olark
Speaker 2
44:56
.
And
the
interesting
thing
is
we
have
a
mix
of
extroverts
and
introverts
at
Olark
.
I
would
think
more
people
are
probably
more
introverted
,
a
little
bit
more
quiet
on
average
,
and
you
know
,
some
of
these
situations
are
hard
for
those
people
,
or
and
uh
uh
,
well
,
it
can
be
hard
for
those
people
and
we
try
to
do
our
best
to
build
like
a
a
pretty
inclusive
process
.
Speaker 2
45:17
I
mean
,
you
know
,
for
for
any
position
,
right
,
the
modern
day
,
modern
day
society
requires
kind
of
this
face-to-face
interview
as
part
of
the
hiring
process
.
Speaker 2
45:29
I
mean
WordPress
,
I
think
,
has
a
chat
back-and-forth
hiring
process
,
more
or
less
.
That
sounds
pretty
awesome
,
but
it's
not
something
we've
tried
ourselves
,
because
we
do
end
up
doing
a
lot
of
verbal
communication
at
Olark
,
because
we
do
end
up
doing
a
lot
of
verbal
communication
at
Olark
.
So
when
we're
having
an
interview
like
this
,
it's
not
just
for
fun
,
it's
because
we
need
verbal
communication
as
an
important
skill
at
Olark
,
given
the
way
that
our
company
is
organized
,
and
so
I
guess
yeah
,
I
mean
I
don't
really
have
any
great
advice
for
how
to
stand
out
during
that
process
.
I
think
that
probably
taking
a
little
bit
of
extra
time
to
polish
written
communication
is
always
a
good
step
,
Just
because
,
like
I
think
,
typically
it's
easier
.
Like
you
can
polish
written
communication
,
you
can't
really
polish
verbal
communication
.
You
can
take
a
few
more
seconds
to
think
about
your
thoughts
,
but
you
just
have
the
opportunity
to
spend
a
little
bit
more
time
making
sure
you're
communicating
clearly
when
it's
written
.
Speaker 1
46:35
Any
particular
peak
periods
when
you're
hiring
?
Is
there
any
particular
times
a
year
when
you
hire
most
?
Speaker 2
46:41
Yeah
,
that's
a
good
question
,
year
when
you
hire
most
.
And
yeah
,
that's
a
good
question
.
Uh
,
I
don't
think
there's
a
particular
period
of
time
when
we
hire
the
most
.
I
mean
generally
when
we
have
a
position
,
we
post
it
,
we
promote
it
and
uh
,
you
know
a
small
business
,
we're
like
roughly
30
people
,
so
like
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
hire
like
tons
and
tons
of
of
people
.
I
mean
that
would
be
when
we
are
bootstrapped
.
So
one
thing
that
would
be
kind
of
cool
for
raising
money
is
you
could
go
hire
lots
of
people
.
I
mean
that
would
be
.
And
we
are
bootstrapped
.
So
one
thing
that
would
be
kind
of
cool
for
raising
money
is
you
could
go
hire
lots
of
people
.
But
that's
not
really
like
our
,
our
MO
.
Yeah
,
I
don't
,
I
don't
.
Speaker 2
47:11
Generally
speaking
,
like
our
quarters
are
a
little
bit
,
they're
a
little
offset
.
So
like
our
Q1
starts
in
February
and
so
like
you
can
just
kind
of
follow
that
calendar
around
the
year
and
kind
of
assume
that
most
hiring
decisions
are
going
to
be
made
before
the
start
of
the
quarter
,
before
you
post
the
job
.
So
like
you
can
think
like
okay
,
well
,
it's
probably
more
likely
that
we're
going
to
post
a
job
and
say
march
than
post
a
job
in
january
,
because
january
is
the
end
of
the
quarter
and
March
is
the
beginning
.
The
first
month
,
or
February
,
is
the
beginning
of
the
quarter
.
So
it's
much
more
likely
that
the
jobs
are
going
to
be
posted
at
the
beginning
of
the
quarter
beginning
of
an
OLAQ
quarter
than
the
end
of
an
OLAQ
quarter
,
just
because
that's
,
generally
speaking
,
the
pacing
.
But
probably
if
you
go
look
at
our
historical
job
listings
,
it
could
be
interesting
to
know
how
well
that
matches
up
it
varies
right
okay
so
um
,
somebody's
got
through
the
interview
process
.
Speaker 1
48:14
They
you
know
you've
got
an
onboarding
process
you
put
.
Speaker 2
48:18
You
pull
that
into
place
as
well
,
and
tools
that
you
use
as
well
yeah
,
yeah
,
I
mean
we
put
just
as
much
work
in
the
.
I
mean
,
interviewing
is
just
the
beginning
of
the
process
,
right
,
you
bring
,
you're
bringing
remote
people
.
You
need
them
to
feel
like
they're
part
of
the
team
and
our
onboarding
process
takes
,
for
most
positions
,
at
least
two
weeks
of
just
very
,
very
onboarding
focused
work
.
So
you
know
,
meeting
your
team
,
understanding
the
tools
,
tools
,
understanding
how
to
work
at
olark
,
how
to
work
remotely
,
uh
.
But
you
know
,
in
a
way
,
we're
always
,
we're
all
always
onboarding
,
right
,
you're
always
like
kind
of
learning
and
growing
and
upping
your
game
and
so
that
that
doesn't
really
,
uh
,
stop
okay
,
and
for
you
,
I
,
we're
coming
close
to
the
end
.
Speaker 1
49:05
Now
we
are
.
Now
.
You've
given
us
a
lot
of
time
.
Thank
you
,
ben
.
What
do
you
see
?
What's
the
future
for
Olark
?
And
you
know
how
do
you
see
?
Yeah
,
what's
the
?
Where's
your
future
lie
?
Speaker 2
49:18
Yeah
,
sure
,
well
,
I
think
you
know
the
beginning
of
this
call
.
I
can
talk
about
this
a
little
bit
.
I
think
,
if
you
look
at
Olark's
mission
,
our
mission
is
to
make
business
human
,
and
we
have
this
live
chat
product
right
now
that
exists
in
a
world
where
a
lot
of
competition
,
I
think
,
is
very
focused
on
automation
and
AI
,
and
so
I
think
what
you'll
see
is
Olark
really
,
really
championing
the
automation
side
that
really
helps
humans
perform
better
.
I
think
where
we're
trying
to
focus
is
how
do
we
help
you
bring
your
full
self
to
work
every
day
?
How
do
we
make
sure
that
you
are
in
a
position
where
you
can
grow
,
so
you're
incentivized
to
do
a
good
job
every
day
,
right
?
So
we're
,
we're
going
to
be
the
live
chat
company
that
sort
of
takes
some
of
the
values
we've
built
internally
and
encode
them
into
our
product
in
a
way
that
makes
our
product
quite
a
bit
different
from
what
some
other
competitors
are
building
.
So
that's
sort
of
the
future
of
the
live
chat
product
.
At
the
same
time
,
we
have
this
broader
mission
and
we
see
our
mission
as
sort
of
this
championing
this
idea
of
business
humanity
.
So
you'll
see
us
launch
a
couple
of
new
products
that
are
designed
to
kind
of
help
people
sort
of
be
the
best
that
they
can
be
,
so
,
like
you
know
,
really
looking
at
things
that
people
do
well
and
help
them
do
it
even
better
.
Speaker 2
50:45
An
example
of
this
is
a
product
that
we're
about
to
launch
,
probably
in
January
.
It's
called
Dyno
Insights
.
It's
a
product
that
helps
you
pull
insight
out
of
interviews
.
For
example
,
a
lot
of
product
managers
,
journalists
,
podcasters
do
interviews
constantly
as
part
of
their
job
,
and
a
lot
of
people
inside
product
organizations
and
software
companies
actually
avoid
doing
interviews
.
All
the
people
could
get
more
insight
and
learn
more
from
those
interviews
if
they
had
tools
that
helped
them
structure
their
thinking
,
and
so
the
first
product
here
is
just
a
product
that
helps
you
conduct
verbal
,
remote
interviews
and
pull
insights
out
of
it
and
store
those
insights
for
later
consumption
to
share
within
your
org
,
because
another
thing
that
often
happens
with
interviews
is
that
,
uh
,
they
get
lost
or
they
exist
like
just
in
a
user
researcher's
,
like
local
computer
or
like
spread
out
around
drive
,
and
they're
just
,
they're
messy
,
and
you
might
end
up
with
a
report
here
and
there
,
but
it's
really
hard
to
go
back
to
the
source
materials
.
So
a
lot
of
uh
,
one
product
helping
people
do
better
interviews
to
get
better
insight
,
to
build
better
products
,
to
just
sort
of
generally
learn
faster
.
And
I
think
it's
one
product
that
will
be
launched
in
January
.
Speaker 2
52:16
And
then
another
product
that
we're
working
on
is
taking
a
lot
of
our
philosophy
around
customer
service
and
turning
it
into
a
set
of
courses
that
people
can
use
to
learn
and
think
about
customer
service
,
the
way
that
we
think
about
customer
service
and
the
way
it's
helped
us
build
this
successful
company
.
We
think
this
is
great
for
a
couple
of
reasons
.
One
reason
is
,
quite
honestly
,
a
lot
of
customer
service
training
out
there
is
crap
.
It's
just
not
modernized
for
what
it
means
to
be
an
enlightened
customer
service
person
.
If
you
think
about
call
center
jobs
,
they're
basically
set
up
for
you
handle
rote
stuff
.
If
you're
really
good
,
maybe
you
get
promoted
to
manage
a
bunch
of
other
people
handling
rote
stuff
.
And
we
want
to
help
people
reframe
that
role
of
customer
service
into
something
that
really
helps
produce
insight
.
It
helps
produce
employees
that
can
move
up
and
grow
within
that
organization
,
who
really
understand
that
company's
customer
.
And
in
many
ways
customer
service
can
be
a
profit
center
and
I
think
a
lot
of
times
it's
framed
as
a
cost
center
.
So
it's
sort
of
courses
that
help
reframe
the
philosophy
of
customer
service
and
not
just
like
here's
how
you
deal
with
an
unhappy
customer
or
whatever
.
There
are
elements
of
how
do
you
take
care
of
yourself
as
someone
whose
main
job
is
expressing
empathy
all
the
time
.
So
we've
launched
that
course
kind
of
internally
.
We've
done
a
beta
with
a
couple
of
other
companies
and
they've
found
it
to
be
really
good
.
So
that'll
be
cleaned
up
a
little
bit
and
relaunched
probably
in
2019
.
So
that'll
be
really
cool
too
.
Speaker 2
54:06
So
I
think
you
can
think
of
Olark
and
the
way
that
I
like
to
think
about
Olark
is
if
Fog
Creek
was
sort
of
this
developer-centric
incubator
for
all
these
great
ideas
.
They
helped
spun
out
Trello
.
They
helped
spun
out
Stack
Overflow
.
Speaker 2
54:21
Many
people
have
never
heard
of
Fog
Creek
.
That's
one
of
sack
overflow
.
Yeah
,
many
people
have
never
heard
of
fog
creek
,
and
I
want
olark
to
sort
of
be
like
the
fog
creek
of
human-centered
business
,
focusing
on
,
like
the
problems
,
the
areas
where
humans
are
really
good
at
helping
humans
doing
those
,
doing
those
Inspiring Growth Through Innovation
Speaker 2
54:36
jobs
even
better
.
And
so
I
think
where
we're
trying
to
go
is
to
be
able
to
take
that
core
business
of
olark
live
chat
and
grow
it
,
but
also
spin
out
these
really
interesting
solutions
to
other
problems
and
hopefully
inspire
more
entrepreneurs
to
.
You
know
,
take
AI
and
figure
out
how
it
can
make
humans
like
a
ton
better
rather
than
just
replace
humans
,
cause
I
feel
like
,
uh
,
one
is
a
lot
more
fun
for
all
of
us
.
Speaker 1
54:59
Well
,
ben
,
you're
inspiring
me
,
You've
inspired
me
to
even
be
on
this
call
with
you
today
and
I
just
want
to
say
thank
you
so
much
for
your
time
.
You've
given
so
much
yourself
today
.
Thank
you
,
and
yeah
,
we'll
be
keeping
a
lookout
for
uh
,
for
dino
insight
and
um
your
,
your
other
product
,
um
later
in
the
year
as
well
.
Speaker 2
55:19
So
,
thank
you
for
sure
,
alex
,
it's
been
fun
.
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