What if you could lead a groundbreaking remote-first company without sacrificing your passion for hobbies? Join us as we sit down with Job van der Voort, CEO and co-founder of Remote, a former neuroscientist with a unique approach to interviews and a compelling journey from GitLab’s VP of Product to pioneering the future of work. Job’s passion for remote work, coupled with his impressive ability to manage a remote-first startup while balancing countless hobbies, creates a fascinating discussion about scaling businesses and the evolving landscape of work.
In our conversation, Job shares the invaluable lessons he learned while building and scaling a fully distributed company. We explore the transformative experiences at GitLab that cemented his belief in remote work, the rapid growth and high demand for Remote, and the significant challenges of managing a successful startup. Job dives deep into how the COVID-19 pandemic accelerated the need for remote work solutions and the critical role of leadership in these times, providing insights on clarity, determination, and the importance of a dedicated team.
Job also reveals his strategies for fostering continuous learning within a remote environment, emphasizing clear career paths, managerial support, and flexible hiring practices that prioritize effective communication skills. We discuss the growing importance of asynchronous work practices, minimizing unnecessary meetings, and maintaining productivity. Finally, Job shares his tips on balancing a busy work schedule with quality family time, ensuring a healthy work-life balance. This episode is packed with valuable takeaways for leaders and remote work enthusiasts, and we can’t wait for you to hear it.
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Interview With Remote Work CEO
Speaker 1
0:00
Skype
.
There
you
go
.
Speaker 2
0:03
Thank
you
Okay
.
Have
you
got
the
questions
?
Are
the
questions
okay
?
Anything
that
you
want
to
ask
me
at
all
.
Speaker 1
0:13
You
know
,
when
people
send
me
the
questions
,
I
don't
read
them
Because
it
just
makes
me
start
to
think
what
to
answer
.
And
,
like
I
prefer
to
be
authentic
,
Exactly
so
.
I
like
surprises
.
I'm
quick
on
my
feet
.
Speaker 2
0:26
I
should
be
okay
that
is
music
to
my
ears
,
because
the
next
question
I
was
going
to
ask
you
do
you
mind
having
some
on
the
spot
questions
?
Speaker 1
0:32
so
no
,
I
love
it
.
That's
you
know
.
To
be
completely
frank
,
I
get
the
same
questions
daily
,
so
you
know
,
and
then
I
try
to
vary
a
little
bit
my
answers
and
I
don't
feel
,
like
you
know
,
I'm
repeating
myself
too
much
.
But
,
no
,
I
like
interesting
,
hard
questions
.
I
don't
know
If
I
don't
want
to
answer
something
.
I'm
also
very
comfortable
just
telling
you
,
but
it
has
not
happened
,
Okay
.
Speaker 2
0:57
Okay
,
I'll
bear
that
in
mind
as
I
try
to
think
of
some
hard
questions
in
my
head
at
the
moment
.
Speaker 1
1:01
Yeah
,
go
for
it
.
Speaker 2
1:09
Yeah
,
hard
questions
in
my
head
.
Yeah
,
go
for
it
.
Yeah
,
excellent
,
excellent
,
okay
,
so
let's
get
kicked
off
.
Then
let
me
um
close
that
down
,
because
looks
like
my
internet
is
not
doing
so
good
today
.
Um
,
right
,
and
I
pronounce
your
name
,
york
.
Yeah
,
it's
perfect
.
Speaker 1
1:20
yeah
,
really
well
done
.
Yeah
,
better
than
my
wife
did
it
the
first
year
.
Speaker 2
1:27
I
better
cut
that
bit
out
of
the
recording
.
Okay
,
let's
do
this
,
right
,
all
right
,
what's
that
one
there
?
Speaker 2
1:46
Okay
okay
,
right
,
so
here
we
go
.
Hello
everybody
.
It's
alex
once
again
from
remote
work
life
.
Welcome
and
thanks
for
joining
me
.
Speaker 2
2:01
And
today
I
have
,
well
,
yet
another
special
guest
.
As
I
mentioned
to
you
before
,
we
only
bring
the
best
guests
on
the
remote
work
life
podcast
,
and
today
I
have
with
me
Job
van
der
Voort
.
And
Job
is
the
CEO
and
co-founder
of
remote
Job
,
previously
worked
as
a
neuroscientist
,
believe
it
or
not
,
before
leaving
academia
to
become
the
VP
of
product
at
GitLab
,
which
,
as
you
may
or
may
not
know
,
is
the
world's
largest
all-remote
company
.
He
hired
talent
in
67
different
countries
,
so
that
,
wow
,
that's
immense
.
So
we're
going
to
learn
a
little
bit
about
that
today
.
Job
is
also
a
highly
sought-after
presenter
.
He
speaks
on
topics
relating
to
scaling
a
remote
first
startup
,
remote
culture
and
the
future
of
work
.
So
,
yeah
,
ideal
guest
have
on
the
podcast
.
Job
also
has
two
kids
and
500
hobbies
,
and
and
you
know
,
I
need
to
ask
Job
about
that
because
500
hobbies
,
I
mean
,
puts
me
to
shame
.
But
,
job
,
thank
you
for
joining
me
today
and
you're
welcome
to
the
podcast
.
Speaker 1
3:14
Thanks
for
having
me
,
Alex
.
Speaker 2
3:16
So
welcome
,
so
welcome
,
so
Job
,
I've
been
waiting
quite
a
while
for
this
moment
.
I
think
you
started
remote
around
about
2019
,
around
about
the
same
time
that
I
started
the
Remote
Work
Life
podcast
,
and
I
suppose
,
quite
frankly
,
it's
exploded
in
terms
of
interest
,
in
terms
of
uptake
.
I
just
wanted
to
say
,
as
I
I
said
,
thank
you
for
joining
me
,
but
tell
me
,
um
,
how
did
it
,
you
know
,
how
did
you
get
to
this
point
?
Did
you
envision
yourself
in
this
role
when
you're
at
gitlab
,
for
example
?
Speaker 1
3:55
yeah
,
funny
story
.
I
um
,
I
was
doing
a
different
job
before
gitlab
where
I
met
sid
,
the
ceo
,
and
he
,
oh
,
do
you
want
to
join
me
at
GitLab
?
And
I
was
like
,
yeah
,
I'll
join
you
,
but
I
kind
of
want
to
start
my
own
company
.
So
I'll
join
you
for
a
year
and
then
I'm
going
to
leave
.
And
that
year
turned
into
five
years
.
So
in
a
way
I
did
envision
running
my
own
company
,
at
least
because
that
was
explicitly
my
goal
even
by
the
time
that
I
joined
GitLab
.
And
between
Sid
and
I
we
always
had
an
agreement
that
I
would
join
and
then
I
would
leave
,
and
that
was
always
the
agreement
.
And
so
I
mean
I
stayed
for
five
years
and
I
told
him
look
,
now's
the
time
I
told
you
this
was
going
to
happen
.
Now
I'm
going
to
go
.
Lessons of Building a Distributed Company
Speaker 1
4:37
So
in
a
way
,
yes
,
I
mean
I
would
never
imagine
myself
leading
such
a
large
maybe
you
know
,
leading
such
a
large
um
area
.
Maybe
too
early
to
tell
,
but
relatively
successful
companies
?
Speaker 2
4:49
no
,
and
I
think
.
Well
,
you
obviously
had
,
like
you
said
,
you
had
that
goal
in
your
mind
.
So
it
sounds
like
I
mean
,
and
from
some
of
the
interviews
I've
listened
to
you
,
you
sound
like
maybe
I
don't
know
if
I'm
right
or
wrong
a
bit
of
a
risk
here
,
but
you
sound
like
you're
the
kind
of
person
who
really
knows
what
they
want
and
you
go
after
it
and
you
plan
out
what
you
want
and
you
approach
things
from
that
perspective
.
Am
I
right
in
saying
that
?
Speaker 1
5:12
Yeah
,
no
,
you're
right
.
I've
been
always
very
clear
on
what
I
want
,
although
that
thing
has
changed
many
times
.
I
don't
know
what
I
want
to
do
after
remote
if
they
kick
me
out
.
But
no
,
kick
me
out
,
but
um
no
.
I've
been
always
incredibly
stubborn
about
what
I
want
to
do
,
and
I've
always
just
gone
straight
for
that
.
Speaker 2
5:29
So
,
yeah
,
yes
,
well
,
that's
a
good
point
,
it's
a
good
guess
.
It's
a
good
guess
,
but
no
,
um
,
and
we're
going
to
talk
.
I
mean
,
for
those
of
you
listening
today
,
we're
going
to
really
dig
into
um
,
obviously
going
to
be
talking
about
remote
work
,
we're
going
to
be
talking
about
asynchronous
work
as
well
,
working
asynchronously
within
your
teams
.
But
,
as
you
all
know
,
I
like
to
get
under
the
skin
really
and
really
understand
the
people
behind
the
businesses
and
to
that
,
as
I
was
saying
before
,
I
listened
to
a
few
of
Yub's
interviews
and
,
yeah
,
what
I
was
supposed
to
want
to
know
is
how
was
your
time
at
GitLab
?
What
did
it
teach
?
Speaker 1
6:13
you
A
lot
of
things
.
It
was
five
years
,
so
it's
a
lot
of
time
,
and
the
company
grew
really
fast
.
The
first
year
,
at
GitLab
,
we
were
initially
not
even
planning
to
raise
any
VC
money
and
we
thought
we're
just
going
to
bootstrap
this
,
and
a
year
later
we
were
in
Y
Combinator
.
We
went
through
that
whole
experience
and
so
a
lot
I
learned
,
how
I
think
the
most
fundamental
thing
is
is
that
I
learned
that
you
can
do
this
.
You
can
build
a
truly
distributed
team
.
Speaker 1
6:43
I
have
people
all
over
the
world
and
build
a
very
successful
company
and
,
I
think
,
in
a
lot
of
ways
,
a
company
that
,
for
one
,
breaks
the
mold
but
also
does
many
things
significantly
better
,
and
not
necessarily
because
of
choice
,
but
more
because
,
as
an
emergent
property
of
the
fact
that
we
didn't
have
any
offices
,
we
ended
up
hiring
from
all
over
the
world
and
ended
up
with
a
very
diverse
team
.
Speaker 1
7:03
I
think
that
in
and
of
itself
,
has
so
many
advantages
for
any
kind
of
organization
and
it's
such
a
great
forcing
function
to
better
practices
like
asynchronous
work
and
many
others
that
you
know
.
I
think
that
laid
the
foundation
on
what
I
was
going
to
do
next
,
right
,
like
I
think
the
reason
that
remote
exists
is
because
I
saw
the
problem
we
face
,
the
problems
we
face
at
GitLab
and
are
trying
to
solve
that
at
remote
,
but
also
because
I
believe
that
,
okay
,
you
can
build
these
kinds
of
organizations
and
I
want
to
help
more
people
create
organizations
like
this
and
,
in
doing
so
,
give
more
people
the
opportunity
to
work
for
those
kinds
of
organizations
.
So
,
yeah
,
a
whole
lot
.
Gitlab
taught
me
a
whole
lot
.
I
don't
want
to
say
everything
,
but
a
whole
lot
.
Speaker 2
7:43
No
,
nice
summary
.
What's
the
biggest
takeaway
from
you
,
from
GitLab
?
What's
the
?
Speaker 1
7:51
biggest
thing
you've
probably
learned
from
your
time
there
.
I
mean
,
it's
what
I
said
,
it's
the
fact
that
you
can
do
this
,
that
you
can
build
this
truly
distributed
company
,
and
that
it
has
massive
advantages
.
That
is
easily
the
best
one
,
I
think
.
When
we
were
building
GitLab
,
we
often
faced
people
being
skeptic
about
the
fact
that
we
were
fully
remote
and
fully
distributed
.
It
was
seen
as
a
very
controversial
thing
to
do
something
that
was
very
rare
and
exceptional
,
and
the
questions
were
always
the
same
,
like
oh
,
only
certain
kind
of
people
,
or
you
don't
collaborate
,
or
it's
just
because
you're
building
this
kind
of
company
,
or
a
million
others
really
.
Like
,
for
example
,
we
knew
at
GitLab
,
oh
,
we
were
not
a
good
acquisition
target
because
we
didn't
have
an
office
in
San
Francisco
,
so
it
would
be
very
hard
to
acquire
us
.
All
of
those
things
.
They
seem
super
controversial
at
the
time
,
but
while
in
GitLab
,
it
seems
so
incredibly
obvious
that
this
was
working
.
Yeah
,
that
was
the
takeaway
.
Speaker 2
8:45
That
GitLab
,
it
seemed
so
incredibly
obvious
that
this
was
working
.
That
was
the
takeaway
.
That's
cool
.
You're
at
remote
now
.
You
started
remote
and
everything
seems
to
be
going
really
well
and
you're
hiring
and
growing
different
entities
across
the
world
.
I
mean
,
in
terms
of
remote
,
how
are
things
going
at
remote
at
the
moment
for
you
?
Speaker 1
9:07
uh
,
I
think
pretty
well
.
Uh
,
it's
running
companies
really
really
hard
and
um
,
remote
grew
from
.
I
think
a
year
ago
we
had
40
or
50
employees
,
today
we
have
500
something
,
so
that's
,
that's
a
lot
.
It's
really
hard
to
build
some
kind
of
structure
,
organization
and
to
make
people
even
understand
what
their
job
is
when
you're
growing
this
incredibly
fast
.
And
so
the
reason
that
we
grew
so
fast
is
because
there's
so
much
demand
,
right
,
we
have
thousands
of
customers
,
and
so
those
two
things
together
that's
really
difficult
.
I
think
from
the
outside
,
and
if
you
look
at
the
numbers
,
we
are
quite
a
successful
company
.
I
think
on
the
outside
,
if
you
look
at
the
numbers
,
we
are
quite
a
successful
company
.
I
think
on
the
inside
sometimes
it
feels
like
everything
is
on
fire
,
but
it's
also
a
little
bit
the
way
it
goes
to
the
startup
.
I
think
generally
everybody
that
works
at
remote
is
working
really
hard
to
build
something
really
,
really
good
.
Speaker 2
9:59
I
would
give
us
an
8
out
of
10
so
far
the
thing
I've
noticed
about
you
very
um
,
are
you
the
kind
of
person
as
well
who
just
really
absorbs
challenges
and
just
takes
things
as
they
come
um
,
or
are
you
somebody
who
just
really
foresees
what
might
happen
and
can
prepare
for
those
things
?
Speaker 1
10:23
well
,
I
think
a
bit
of
both
.
Right
.
In
a
startup
,
the
reality
is
,
and
for
any
problem
set
,
most
of
the
things
that
you
think
are
complex
you
figure
out
in
advance
and
real
hard
things
you
encounter
while
you're
doing
it
right
,
and
the
same
goes
with
a
startup
.
So
I
had
all
these
grand
visions
about
particular
parts
of
how
we
were
going
to
do
things
and
some
of
them
really
panned
out
and
some
of
them
were
still
very
much
building
and
I
first
saw
them
years
ago
.
And
others
I
had
never
imagined
that
those
were
complex
things
that
we
would
trip
over
six
times
before
we
were
able
to
fix
them
.
So
you
know
,
I
would
say
a
bit
of
both
,
which
I
think
is
necessary
in
a
startup
.
Speaker 2
11:09
You
need
to
have
a
long-term
vision
,
but
you
also
need
to
be
able
to
deal
with
the
day-to-day
.
And
what
about
?
Because
?
I
mean
we
in
different
podcasts
I
hear
you
talking
a
lot
about
,
about
remote
,
but
what
about
you
and
your
career
Leadership Lessons in Remote Work
Speaker 2
11:17
?
I
mean
you've
talked
through
some
of
the
chat
,
basically
some
of
the
challenges
you've
had
so
far
with
remote
,
but
what
about
your
career
?
I
mean
for
you
,
what
have
been
the
personal
challenges
that
you've
had
in
your
career
that
you've
had
to
had
to
overcome
?
Speaker 1
11:31
um
,
I
don't
know
,
I
I
always
like
to
say
that
I'm
not
a
very
good
example
or
story
to
listen
to
in
that
sense
,
because
,
as
as
we
were
saying
early
on
,
is
that
I
like
challenges
and
I
overcome
them
by
force
of
will
.
So
I
don't
feel
like
I
.
You
know
,
I
think
I've
had
struggles
,
like
everybody
else
,
but
I
I
never
felt
like
wow
,
that
was
like
a
major
hard
thing
to
come
out
to
,
to
get
over
.
You
know
,
as
I
was
saying
,
I
think
it's
really
hard
to
build
a
company
and
it's
probably
the
biggest
challenge
so
far
career-wise
.
Speaker 2
12:02
Fair
enough
and
it's
a
nice
challenge
to
have
that
success
.
You're
in
.
Is
it
67
entities
?
Now
you
said
right
.
Speaker 1
12:11
No
,
but
we
are
around
60
or
so
that
we
have
right
now
and
it's
growing
really
fast
.
I
think
we'll
be
around
80
before
the
end
of
the
year
.
So
we're
adding
a
lot
these
last
two
months
.
Speaker 2
12:22
And
for
those
who
don't
know
about
remote
reading
a
lot
these
last
two
months
of
steve
and
for
those
who
don't
know
about
remote
,
just
could
you
give
us
just
like
an
overview
of
of
what
remote
is
all
about
?
I
mean
,
I
know
,
but
I
don't
want
to
bore
people
with
my
,
so
you
please
,
you
tell
us
?
Speaker 1
12:33
it's
very
simple
if
you
have
a
company
and
you
want
to
hire
someone
in
a
different
country
than
where
you
have
that
company
,
we
can
solve
that
for
you
.
We
take
care
of
payroll
,
we
take
care
of
compliance
,
taxes
and
anything
else
that
comes
with
it
.
That
is
what
remote
does
and
that's
what
we
solve
,
and
we
solve
that
in
a
million
different
ways
.
We
solve
that
for
contractors
,
for
direct
employees
or
employees
that
are
employed
through
us
,
through
an
employer
records
kind
of
structure
,
any
kind
of
form
really
,
and
anything
that
comes
with
that
as
well
Payroll
benefits
,
but
also
more
complicated
things
than
that
.
We
solve
all
of
that
,
which
is
a
lot
and
it's
really
really
complex
,
but
fundamentally
it
just
solves
that
one
problem
you
want
to
hire
someone
in
a
different
country
.
We
solve
that
.
Speaker 2
13:15
And
you
do
that
by
API
.
How
does
that
work
then
?
Because
I
mean
,
I
get
the
concept
,
but
you
do
that
via
API
.
Can
you
explain
that
a
bit
more
?
Speaker 1
13:26
No
.
Speaker 1
13:27
So
the
way
we
do
it
is
by
lots
of
sweat
and
tears
.
It's
you
have
to
figure
out
like
,
let's
say
,
I
want
to
hire
Jane
in
Portugal
,
right
,
I
have
to
then
go
into
Portugal
,
figure
out
what
are
the
local
labor
laws
like
,
how
do
I
employ
someone
,
how
do
I
run
payroll
locally
?
So
we
do
this
for
every
country
in
the
world
and
in
doing
so
,
we
have
to
build
software
to
automate
the
processes
involved
with
onboarding
Jane
and
all
their
other
friends
.
So
we
build
all
this
software
,
which
is
this
really
complicated
stack
of
software
that
does
a
million
different
things
,
and
we
make
it
available
directly
to
our
customers
so
that
you
can
just
sign
up
and
you
don't
have
to
talk
to
someone
,
but
rather
you're
just
guided
through
this
onboarding
thing
.
Or
we
make
available
APIs
so
that
,
if
you
are
a
partner
of
ours
,
you
can
offer
the
same
kind
of
functionality
.
So
you
can
say
,
well
,
you
can
employ
people
through
us
,
but
really
through
remote
,
and
there's
this
API
available
that
we
then
use
to
integrate
with
remote
that
is
really
what
that
is
Amazing
.
Speaker 2
14:24
Like
you
said
,
it's
got
so
many
different
moving
parts
,
but
you've
managed
to
package
it
in
such
a
way
that
you've
been
able
to
scale
so
quickly
.
You
must
have
a
wonderful
team
.
Speaker 1
14:36
I
do
yeah
.
Speaker 2
14:38
And
in
terms
of
the
uh
,
did
you
,
did
you
and
I
mean
I
know
obviously
everybody's
been
forced
to
work
remotely
,
um
,
and
some
are
liking
it
,
some
others
aren't
,
and
it's
you
know
you're
you're
having
lots
of
clients
on
board
did
you
?
Did
you
anticipate
the
sort
of
uh
,
the
success
that
you
,
that
you're
having
now
?
Did
you
anticipate
the
numbers
?
Speaker 1
15:03
No
,
I
didn't
.
I
also
didn't
anticipate
COVID
,
so
,
which
I
think
is
a
major
boon
and
like
one
of
the
main
ways
that
this
massive
shift
to
remote
work
happened
right
.
So
,
no
,
I
didn't
anticipate
it
.
We
started
seeing
it
when
COVID
started
happening
.
It
was
very
clear
that
this
was
going
to
be
an
accelerating
trend
,
right
.
So
when
COVID
happened
,
it
was
very
clear
that
this
was
going
to
be
an
accelerating
trend
.
Speaker 1
15:21
So
when
COVID
happened
,
it's
not
that
there
was
immediately
a
boom
of
demand
,
the
demand
was
already
there
and
we
were
already
serving
part
of
that
,
but
I
mean
,
we
weren't
actually
,
because
we
only
opened
the
doors
after
COVID
,
but
nonetheless
,
we
were
anticipating
the
demand
.
We
were
speaking
with
potential
customers
for
a
long
time
,
but
what
we
did
anticipate
is
that
once
people
start
working
remotely
,
they
start
to
realize
that
,
oh
,
I
can
just
hire
internationally
instead
of
just
hiring
in
my
country
or
even
in
a
neighborhood
in
which
I
have
an
office
.
And
now
I
think
we're
starting
to
see
that
demand
realized
.
Right
Now
you
start
to
see
more
and
more
jobs
opening
that
have
location
anywhere
,
and
that
is
what
we
were
anticipating
a
year
,
year
and
a
half
ago
,
but
not
before
that
,
absolutely
not
.
No
,
I
thought
we
would
be
successful
.
I
knew
that
this
was
an
interesting
market
.
I
knew
we
could
be
successful
in
this
.
I
didn't
anticipate
us
,
within
two
years
,
to
have
a
company
with
500
employees
now
.
Speaker 2
16:21
It's
incredible
.
It's
just
,
it's
beyond
,
sort
of
like
,
yeah
,
it's
incredible
,
that's
the
only
word
I
can
think
of
right
now
and
obviously
being
,
you
know
,
fast
forwarding
to
where
you
are
now
,
to
500
employees
,
leadership
obviously
comes
into
it
.
You
know
you
,
you
as
not
just
a
founder
,
but
there
has
to
be
so
many
facets
to
your
,
the
way
you
work
and
who
you
are
,
in
order
to
to
have
a
successful
company
.
Um
,
with
that
scale
,
what's
the
?
What
would
you
say
is
probably
the
most
significant
or
most
important
leadership
lesson
that
you've
learned
.
Speaker 1
17:03
Oh
,
good
question
,
I
don't
know
.
I
think
it's
hire
great
people
and
give
them
the
space
to
be
great
.
I
think
that's
one
of
the
most
important
things
.
You'll
find
that
if
you
hire
someone
that's
ambitious
and
hungry
,
as
they
say
,
right
,
wants
to
get
shit
done
,
and
you
give
them
the
space
to
do
so
,
they
tend
to
be
excellent
people
and
they
tend
to
do
really
well
,
and
I
think
that's
how
I
am
as
a
leader
.
I
tell
all
my
reports
that
you
have
to
play
around
to
yourself
.
You
get
to
do
your
best
work
.
I
will
make
sure
you're
unblocked
.
You
have
anything
.
Speaker 2
17:36
You
need
money
,
people
,
whatever
else
show
,
show
me
your
best
work
,
and
that
tends
to
work
out
really
,
really
well
okay
,
the
reason
I'm
laughing
is
because
I've
worked
in
recruitment
for
a
number
of
years
myself
and
you
said
just
hire
the
best
people
.
Yeah
,
that
,
yeah
,
that's
the
the
end
game
.
You
want
to
hire
the
best
people
.
Yeah
,
that's
the
end
game
.
You
want
to
hire
the
best
people
.
But
I
think
the
principles
of
recruiting
and
hiring
people
,
yeah
,
they're
pretty
much
there
.
We're
not
set
in
stone
but
it's
pretty
straightforward
to
follow
those
principles
but
it's
easier
to
sort
of
like
the
practice
of
recruiting
and
hiring
the
right
people
is
the
challenge
what's
the
remote
way
or
the
job
way
of
hiring
people
and
,
you
know
,
making
sure
that
they're
aligned
with
what
you're
looking
at
.
Speaker 1
18:29
Yeah
,
I
think
it
starts
a
little
bit
early
in
the
net
.
I
think
you
have
to
create
a
company
culture
or
a
place
where
talented
people
want
to
work
.
Right
.
To
create
a
really
safe
,
inclusive
environment
is
a
really
important
one
.
I
think
it's
important
to
almost
everybody
.
That
,
I
think
,
is
great
.
So
that's
a
pretty
good
start
,
right
.
And
even
if
you
want
to
hire
a
white
guy
from
San
Francisco
,
creating
an
inclusive
environment
is
also
going
to
do
better
for
them
,
right
.
That's
a
really
good
place
to
start
.
And
then
you
create
an
atmosphere
that
is
pleasant
for
them
as
well
.
Speaker 1
18:56
If
you're
a
micromanager
,
they
will
get
that
sense
from
you
,
from
your
organization
,
in
talking
with
your
organization
.
Like
nobody
wants
to
work
for
a
micromanager
.
So
that's
where
it
starts
.
And
then
you
know
,
like
there's
no
such
thing
as
the
best
person
in
any
given
thing
.
One
way
you're
definitely
not
going
to
find
it
is
by
looking
at
someone's
CV
and
counting
the
years
of
experience
they
have
in
X
or
Y
,
right
.
Like
it's
not
how
you
find
someone
great
at
all
.
It's
quite
the
opposite
.
I
think
you're
going
to
find
someone
that's
incredibly
rigid
and
very
like
expecting
a
particular
thing
if
they
spend
a
lot
of
time
.
So
I
think
really
what
you're
looking
for
is
like
what
is
the
kind
of
person
that
matches
our
organization
,
matches
what
I
like
to
the
type
of
person
that
I
like
to
work
with
,
right
,
and
this
is
often
described
as
cultural
,
but
it's
also
,
you
know
how
people
select
people
that
look
like
themselves
,
so
careful
not
to
use
that
but
,
how
you
know
,
looking
for
that
person
that
matches
well
with
you
and
with
with
a
greater
organization
.
And
then
,
of
course
,
has
some
relevant
experience
.
Speaker 1
19:54
And
what
I
find
is
that
one
of
the
best
predictors
if
someone
is
successful
at
remote
not
going
to
make
any
judgments
with
other
companies
,
but
at
remote
is
someone
that
is
very
kind
,
hardworking
and
just
very
smart
.
And
then
experience
in
the
relevant
place
in
which
we're
hiring
them
into
.
It's
definitely
important
and
it's
going
to
help
them
a
lot
,
but
it's
not
the
solution
to
the
hiring
fit
right
.
The
fit
is
going
to
be
fully
determined
by
all
the
other
things
,
assuming
they
have
the
experience
that
they
need
to
be
able
to
do
the
job
,
and
that's
how
you
hire
the
best
people
.
Speaker 1
20:28
And
so
that
means
sometimes
,
you
know
,
we
have
people
that
don't
have
many
years
of
experience
in
a
particular
function
,
but
because
now
they
finally
have
,
you
know
they're
getting
the
trust
,
they're
getting
the
space
to
do
the
best
work
.
That
is
why
they
succeed
at
remote
and
so
,
yeah
,
I
think
a
very
large
part
,
if
not
my
entire
team
is
exactly
people
like
that
.
I
mean
,
I've
never
been
a
CEO
so
far
.
It's
going
pretty
well
.
So
that's
what
I
was
thinking
about
.
It's
like
I'm
also
new
to
this
job
,
so
let's
all
figure
it
out
together
.
I
don't
necessarily
have
to
hire
people
that
can
redo
the
thing
that
they
have
been
doing
in
the
past
.
Speaker 2
21:06
Love
that
principle
,
love
that
way
of
looking
at
recruitment
,
and
I
think
I've
interviewed
many
people
who
work
remotely
,
especially
those
who
hire
and
make
the
decisions
,
and
I
think
it's
very
different
.
The
way
that
remote
companies
hire
,
the
tactics
might
be
similar
to
sort
of
office-based
hiring
,
but
the
thought
process
is
completely
it's
,
far
removed
.
It's
so
much
more
,
like
you
said
,
it's
more
about
the
person
.
The
CV
is
not
.
People
are
still
so
hung
up
on
resumes
and
CVs
and
don't
look
beyond
the
CV
,
and
I
think
that's
something
that
I
can
categorically
say
that
remote
businesses
do
better
than
any
other
.
So
,
yeah
,
I
love
that
.
Continuous Remote Work Learning and Development
Speaker 2
21:57
Okay
,
so
one
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
.
Actually
,
I
come
across
your
um
and
in
fact
,
myself
,
when
I
was
uh
,
well
,
I
worked
remotely
myself
and
there
was
a
point
where
I
became
very
,
um
,
isolated
in
my
career
,
um
,
and
perhaps
got
so
focused
on
work
that
I
didn't
,
I
didn't
reach
out
as
much
as
I
should
do
.
I
just
just
got
my
head
down
and
did
my
work
and
that
was
it
.
Then
I
realized
you
know
,
I've
got
to
do
a
bit
more
,
I've
got
to
be
a
bit
more
sort
of
out
there
,
I've
got
to
speak
to
people
and
I've
got
to
continue
.
I
like
to
continue
to
learn
that
my
inquisitive
nature
is
what
really
sort
of
took
me
to
to
that
place
where
I
was
learning
a
bit
more
.
But
what's
your
approach
to
not
just
yourself
,
continue
your
own
development
,
um
,
but
also
for
your
team
as
well
,
what's
your
approach
to
you
know
,
learning
and
development
to
keep
moving
forward
?
Speaker 1
22:57
um
,
yeah
,
I
mean
it
.
I
think
it
really
depends
on
,
like
,
what
part
of
the
organization
,
what
kind
of
person
you're
talking
about
,
right
?
Like
,
I
think
it's
very
different
,
for
the
people
that
report
up
to
me
directly
are
all
executives
who
have
a
very
different
kind
of
you
know
,
path
than
you
know
an
individual
contributor
in
the
organization
,
I
think
you
know
,
as
an
organization
as
a
whole
.
There's
a
few
things
you
want
to
do
.
One
is
you
want
to
make
sure
that
for
any
given
role
,
there's
a
career
path
available
to
them
,
right
,
whatever
that
might
be
and
it
might
be
,
you
know
,
moving
up
in
organizations
,
or
becoming
a
manager
,
or
a
manager
of
managers
,
or
moving
,
you
know
,
horizontally
to
a
different
function
,
or
just
at
like
a
different
seniority
right
,
and
all
horizontally
to
a
different
function
,
or
just
at
like
a
different
seniority
right
,
and
all
of
those
have
to
be
available
to
anybody
in
the
organization
.
If
there
isn't
,
they're
going
to
leave
eventually
because
they
want
to
make
steps
up
in
their
career
and
like
and
they
,
they
also
want
that
recognition
like
I
am
growing
and
I'm
getting
better
,
so
I
want
to
actually
move
up
in
roles
.
So
that's
one
which
is
like
setting
the
framework
,
um
,
and
then
you
want
to
make
sure
that
everybody
has
a
manager
that
understands
that
part
of
their
role
is
to
help
their
reports
grow
and
grow
in
their
function
and
grow
in
their
capabilities
and
how
good
they
are
,
and
that
you
know
and
wants
them
to
succeed
and
can
help
them
in
succeeding
.
Speaker 1
24:15
And
like
,
again
,
this
is
an
organizational
structure
trick
,
but
like
if
the
people
have
too
many
reports
they
can't
do
that
right
,
which
is
more
acceptable
but
nonetheless
unacceptable
.
More
acceptable
,
hiring
the
organization
,
but
definitely
if
you
are
an
individual
contributor
,
your
manager
should
have
time
for
you
,
they
should
have
time
for
you
.
And
then
,
beyond
that
,
as
an
organization
,
you
want
to
provide
opportunities
to
learn
and
to
develop
yourself
,
and
it
can
be
in
all
sorts
of
ways
right
,
both
internally
as
well
as
externally
,
through
making
available
budgets
,
through
coaching
them
to
become
leaders
,
for
example
,
by
offering
courses
and
whatever
else
,
and
internal
things
.
With
that
,
we
have
a
learning
and
development
team
side
of
remote
,
so
growing
,
you
know
,
companies
also
.
But
yeah
,
I
think
it's
a
combination
of
all
of
those
things
.
I
think
that
is
that
is
what
is
most
important
that
there's
many
different
ways
that
you
do
this
,
that
you
support
people's
growth
within
an
organization
and
sometimes
outside
of
that
I
like
that
and
talking
talking
about
the
team
,
obviously
continued
learning
is
an
important
thing
.
Speaker 2
25:25
I'm
sure
you
hire
people
who
probably
work
remotely
.
Do
you
hire
generally
people
who
have
not
worked
remotely
,
who
have
not
worked
asynchronously
before
as
well
?
Speaker 1
25:35
Yeah
,
we
don't
care
about
that
,
we
just
hire
whoever
we
want
to
hire
.
I
mean
,
if
you
can
communicate
well
,
you
can
work
remotely
,
that's
it
.
I
don't
feel
about
that
.
We
just
hire
whoever
we
want
to
hire
.
I
mean
,
if
you
can
communicate
well
,
you
can
work
remotely
,
that's
it
.
I
don't
feel
really
strongly
Adopting Async Work
Speaker 1
25:44
about
it
.
Yeah
,
otherwise
,
one
,
you're
just
going
to
shoot
yourself
in
the
foot
.
And
two
,
why
?
Why
block
the
opportunity
to
otherwise
great
people
?
Like
it's
not
,
like
they
have
an
office
to
go
to
,
so
there
was
no
choice
.
Yeah
,
and
it's
not
to
say
that
like
people
won't
struggle
.
They
might
struggle
,
but
we
provide
sufficient
resources
and
coaching
.
And
again
,
like
we
have
a
good
structure
in
the
organization
to
make
sure
that
you
can
succeed
,
um
,
and
there
are
resources
for
you
to
see
it
.
And
it
still
doesn't
work
out
,
for
whatever
reason
.
Speaker 2
26:10
That's
unfortunate
,
but
also
,
luckily
,
very
rare
and
one
of
those
things
that
maybe
people
have
to
adapt
to
and
I
think
more
and
more
in
the
future
is
working
asynchronously
.
And
for
you
,
why
?
Because
I
mean
,
this
is
something
I
think
obviously
is
going
to
,
it's
going
to
grow
.
It's
people
talking
about
it
a
lot
more
now
,
obviously
,
than
they
used
to
talk
about
it
.
Um
,
people
like
yourself
you're
the
I
guess
I've
seen
as
go-to
people
now
in
terms
of
talking
about
it
and
advising
on
it
.
But
in
your
view
,
why
should
,
why
should
leaders
care
about
adopting
async
work
practices
?
Speaker 1
26:54
well
,
if
they
don't
,
their
businesses
will
fail
.
So
I
think
that's
a
pretty
good
reason
why
they
should
care
about
it
.
But
the
reality
is
is
very
simple
if
you
,
if
you
don't
pay
attention
to
this
,
if
you
don't
start
working
asynchronously
,
if
you
are
a
remote
company
,
or
even
if
you're
not
,
um
,
you're
going
to
be
in
meetings
all
day
.
That's
it
,
right
like
it's
.
I
think
asynchronous
work
is
it's
,
or
like
working
asynchronously
is
presented
as
a
magical
thing
that's
going
to
solve
all
your
problems
.
But
the
reality
is
,
it's
just
you
know
a
few
good
standards
around
how
you
should
communicate
that
help
you
also
avoid
meetings
and
help
you
avoid
overhead
completely
unnecessary
,
which
is
sort
of
implied
in
overhead
overhead
that
you
know
everybody
would
be
happy
to
go
without
.
And
so
,
yeah
,
you
have
no
choice
as
a
business
leader
.
Unless
everybody
wants
to
be
in
meetings
all
day
,
which
no
one
wants
to
be
,
you
have
to
start
working
asynchronously
.
Speaker 1
27:51
Wait
,
I
don't
know
if
I
answered
your
question
I
did
say
what
I
wanted
to
say
well
,
it
does
,
it
does
.
Speaker 2
27:58
And
the
thing
is
that
I
think
lots
of
people
I
mean
I'm
looking
at
my
peer
group
now
and
people
who
perhaps
are
not
used
to
working
remotely
it's
almost
there's
still
a
block
,
I
guess
a
mindset
block
,
I
think
,
in
the
sense
that
people
still
feel
as
though
,
if
they
are
in
a
meeting
,
that
they're
doing
things
,
they're
getting
things
done
,
and
therefore
they
add
more
and
more
meetings
to
the
diary
,
which
I
just
find
just
something
that
I
can't
get
over
.
It
seems
as
though
that
people
are
not
necessarily
thinking
about
,
or
even
I
don't
know
,
thinking
,
that
asynchronous
work
can
be
easily
adopted
.
Is
it
something
that
can
be
easily
adapted
?
I
know
you
said
that
each
team
and
each
business
has
to
have
its
own
way
and
its
own
way
of
working
.
Each
team
and
each
business
has
to
have
its
own
way
and
its
own
way
of
working
,
but
how
it
is
Actually
,
that's
a
difficult
question
to
answer
.
Instead
of
that
,
I'll
ask
you
how
should
leaders
approach
trying
to
address
an
over-dependence
on
meetings
?
Speaker 1
29:13
Stop
having
meetings
.
That's
the
trick
.
Stop
having
meetings
,
just
try
to
write
things
to
each
other
.
That's
it
.
There's
nothing
more
to
it
.
That's
the
whole
secret
.
It's
just
stop
having
those
meetings
.
Just
consider
for
a
moment
do
we
need
to
have
this
meeting
?
Is
this
valuable
to
have
?
And
there's
a
few
very
simple
rules
you
can
follow
.
One
are
you
just
sharing
information
?
Don't
have
the
meeting
.
No
point
to
have
a
meeting
at
all
,
just
massive
overhead
and
delaying
particular
kind
of
information
.
Speaker 1
29:39
Rule
number
two
if
you
have
a
meeting
,
make
sure
it
has
a
clear
agenda
.
Everybody
has
seen
it
in
advance
and
everybody
contributes
to
it
.
And
then
you
can
just
add
on
top
of
that
a
million
different
things
just
for
meetings
by
itself
.
But
like
the
if
you
,
if
you
say
,
well
,
we
want
to
stop
over
relying
on
on
meetings
,
I
stop
having
those
meetings
and
like
find
other
ways
.
You
will
like
.
You
will
literally
be
forced
to
find
other
ways
.
You
will
literally
be
forced
to
find
other
ways
to
communicate
with
each
other
.
Speaker 1
30:00
And
if
you're
remote
,
and
especially
if
you're
distributed
so
you're
not
all
working
at
the
same
time
,
then
that
other
ways
means
you
have
to
write
stuff
down
somewhere
or
record
it
right
,
like
speak
it
into
the
air
or
into
a
Loom
video
or
whatever
else
,
and
the
moment
you
do
that
,
you're
working
asynchronously
.
Right
,
it's
like
there's
a
trap
you
can
fall
into
,
which
is
to
say
,
well
,
we're
going
to
stop
having
meetings
,
but
now
we're
just
all
chatting
on
Slack
all
the
time
and
everybody's
expected
to
be
online
at
the
same
time
,
because
we
are
really
bad
at
sharing
information
,
and
I
think
that's
actually
likely
that
you're
going
to
fall
into
the
trap
if
you're
just
immediately
going
to
stop
having
meetings
.
But
if
you
think
about
for
a
few
minutes
,
what
if
we
write
things
down
in
a
place
where
they
belong
,
in
appropriate
context
,
and
make
it
so
that
they
are
non-ephemeral
,
right
,
slack
being
ephemeral
,
the
messages
disappear
essentially
once
they're
out
of
sight
,
and
then
we
put
things
in
a
notion
page
or
in
our
project
management
tool
or
whatever
else
.
Um
,
yeah
,
you're
gonna
,
you're
working
asynchronously
,
that's
it
.
That's
the
solution
.
Speaker 1
30:57
Nobody
wants
to
be
in
meetings
all
day
and
,
like
,
the
few
times
that
you
are
in
meetings
,
you
should
spend
that
time
,
you
know
,
enjoying
seeing
each
other
and
having
an
interesting
conversation
,
like
we
are
.
But
,
um
,
yeah
,
so
yeah
,
how
to
address
it
?
Stop
having
those
meetings
and
then
figure
out
other
ways
,
create
a
single
source
of
truth
for
all
information
and
write
stuff
down
there
I
know
you
said
write
things
down
lots
of
of
other
.
Speaker 2
31:19
Well
,
I
say
lots
,
but
people
are
adopting
things
like
you
know
video
,
short
form
videos
and
short
form
even
audios
.
Now
that's
pretty
big
.
Do
you
do
that
as
well
,
or
are
you
mainly
written
form
within
remote
?
Speaker 1
31:37
No
,
you
know
different
media
for
different
purposes
and
the
nice
thing
about
text
is
it's
easy
to
search
through
and
easy
to
structure
,
whereas
you
cannot
easily
structure
video
or
audio
.
And
luckily
Loom
and
like
Yak
and
such
,
they
now
have
transcripts
which
are
okay
not
great
,
but
they're
okay
and
some
of
them
you
can
search
.
So
that
helps
.
But
you
need
to
have
some
sort
of
central
place
where
you
report
your
documentation
,
your
information
,
and
that
central
place
can
be
different
for
different
projects
.
You
might
want
to
have
one
for
the
whole
company
,
for
example
,
but
then
for
different
projects
it
could
be
a
particular
project
management
tool
or
whatever
else
.
But
writing
things
down
is
nice
because
it
makes
things
easy
to
find
no
,
yeah
,
agreed
into
.
Speaker 2
32:26
I
mean
,
I
think
we've
covered
async
,
obviously
just
in
a
overview
,
but
and
a
lot
of
really
like
your
simplistic
not
simplistic
,
but
your
that's
the
word
straightforward
view
on
that
and
I
think
maybe
,
I
guess
maybe
people
are
just
overcomplicating
things
.
Speaker 1
32:48
Maybe
I'm
oversimplifying
things
.
I
think
it's
a
bit
of
both
.
Speaker 2
32:52
You
think
.
Well
,
I
do
think
that
,
like
you
said
,
if
there's
no
point
having
,
if
people
are
just
sort
of
creating
meetings
just
for
the
sake
of
creating
a
meeting
,
then
then
why
is
it
there
in
the
first
place
?
But
no
,
it's
good
to
hear
that
,
but
what
I
wanted
to
ask
next
is
really
what's
what's
in
store
for
for
remote
going
forward
?
What's
the
?
What
does
the
future
look
like
?
Um
,
and
also
from
your
perspective
you've
you
,
obviously
,
you're
a
father
.
You
recently
had
a
second
edition
to
your
family
what
,
what's
the
what's
in
store
for
you
personally
as
well
?
Speaker 1
33:31
well
,
no
more
kids
,
alex
.
That's
we're
done
with
the
kids
.
Two
kids
is
is
a
lot
,
very
happy
with
them
,
but
no
more
.
No
,
look
,
remote's
doing
really
well
as
a
company
.
We
,
you
know
we
do
a
few
things
,
but
our
ambitions
are
far
greater
than
that
.
So
a
lot
of
exciting
things
to
come
out
most
of
next
year
as
the
year
is
ending
now
.
Yeah
,
for
me
personally
,
it's
doing
that
and
just
enjoying
my
family
.
We're
really
ambitious
with
what
we're
doing
with
Romance
.
It
doesn't
nearly
feel
like
we
have
arrived
to
where
we
want
to
be
.
We
have
a
really
long
path
to
go
,
so
there's
a
lot
to
do
.
Speaker 2
34:15
Well
,
as
a
fellow
dad
myself
,
I've
got
three
kids
.
Speaker 2
34:15
There's
a
lot
to
do
.
Well
,
as
a
fellow
dad
myself
,
I've
got
three
kids
.
You're
dealing
with
different
time
zones
,
different
.
You
know
you're
in
Portugal
,
right
,
and
then
you've
got
people
in
the
US
who
you've
got
people
,
well
,
all
over
the
world
,
how
?
I
mean
,
a
big
part
of
my
audience
are
people
who
are
parents
,
who
are
probably
working
from
home
sometimes
.
What
would
be
your
biggest
piece
of
advice
?
Obviously
,
you've
got
to
be
organized
.
I
think
everybody
would
say
that
.
But
what
is
your
biggest
piece
of
advice
for
people
who
are
trying
to
find
a
balance
with
work
and
home
life
?
Speaker 1
35:02
And
what
would
you
say
?
I
would
say
prioritize
what
is
important
,
which
is
your
family
.
Your
kids
won't
give
a
shit
about
what
you
did
in
your
life
,
um
,
in
,
in
terms
of
work
,
whether
you
were
successful
or
not
,
whether
you
were
the
best
or
not
.
So
,
uh
,
prioritize
your
family
.
That's
a
regret
you'll
never
have
.
That's
it
.
Speaker 1
35:19
I
actually
live
in
the
Netherlands
right
now
.
One
of
the
reasons
we
moved
is
to
be
close
to
my
parents
,
and
that's
one
of
the
best
things
I've
ever
done
,
so
my
kids
can
enjoy
their
grandparents
and
it's
really
,
really
nice
.
And
so
I
prioritize
that
they
didn't
move
.
If
it
was
for
remote
,
maybe
I
would
have
moved
to
the
US
,
where
many
of
our
customers
are
.
That's
not
the
choice
I
wanted
to
make
.
I
would
be
a
terrible
leader
if
I
was
very
unhappy
,
and
I
would
be
unhappy
if
I
couldn't
spend
time
with
my
kids
and
if
we
couldn't
prioritize
them
,
and
so
that's
Balancing Work and Family Time
Speaker 1
35:50
it
.
And
how
do
you
prioritize
when
you
have
a
lot
of
work
going
on
and
you
can
work
24-7
?
It's
by
aggressively
prioritizing
Block
time
for
your
family
so
that
your
work
doesn't
interfere
.
Put
away
your
phone
or
make
sure
that
you
know
your
phone
is
um
,
uh
,
you
don't
have
your
work
,
work
applications
on
your
phone
,
for
example
,
so
that
there's
no
,
there's
no
work
calling
you
while
you're
with
your
family
.
I
think
think
that
is
an
easy
trick
,
but
an
important
one
.
Speaker 2
36:22
It's
been
great
finally
to
have
you
on
the
podcast
,
and
I
,
for
one
,
will
be
keeping
an
eye
on
what
Remote
is
doing
for
the
future
.
And
,
yeah
,
you're
welcome
to
join
us
again
any
time
.
And
you
said
you've
got
some
things
in
store
for
2022
,
which
we'd
love
to
hear
from
you
again
in
2022
,
just
to
hear
what
those
updates
are
.
But
for
now
,
jörg
,
thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us
on
the
podcast
.
Speaker 1
36:49
Thanks
,
Alex
.
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