From the Archives: . Back in 2020/22 I had a great chat with Marteka Swaby of Benevolent Health around mental health in the workplace.
Together, we dissected the fine line separating mental health from mental illness taking into account the profound effects of external stressors that were prevalent at the time.
The landscape of remote work brings its own set of challenges, and in the heart of our conversation, we address the critical need for proactive mental health strategies.
We examine cultural attitudes, particularly the British tendency to maintain a “stiff upper lip,” that can impede seeking help, and we offer insights into creating a thriving sense of community when physical separation prevails.
For managers, we share actionable advice on creating supportive networks and recognizing the sometimes-subtle signs of mental distress in their teams. Marteka shares tactics for nurturing communication, from casual check-ins to motivational interviewing methods that bolster mental health and enhance team dynamics.
In closing we share personal anecdotes and practical steps to build resilience and mental fitness across all areas of life, including the demanding realm of homeschooling.
This one’s not to be missed and is well worth the rerun!
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0:00
Hello everybody. It's Alex here from the remote work life podcast, and I have a really important guest with me today and I have Martika Swabey. Martika Swabey who is the founder of Benevolent Health and Benevolent Health specializing in providing expertise in mental health through consulting, coaching and and mentoring so improving emotional well-being through coaching, consulting and mentoring and I think Martika is very important because, obviously, the conversation around well-being at work is has been a growing conversation over the last few years now, but given our current situation, in the sense that we've been accelerated towards working from home in very unusual circumstances, martika's expertise is very welcome and very much needed. So I had to have Martika on here today. So, martika, thank you so much for giving of your time today for the podcast.
Marteka Swaby:
1:01
Pleasure, alex, thank you so much for having me. As you said, mental health is such an important topic at the moment and I think, uh, you know, with extended lockdown periods and you know, this sort of drastic shift towards Remote working has been a big change for some people. I know, um, a lot of the people that listen to your podcast have been remote working for a long time, so much more experienced with that, and but I do think, um, you know, well-being and staying Emotionally resilient and healthy is always an important topic and a topic that is often overlooked in in all of our lives, so it's great to be here talking to you about that today.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
1:44
No, you're very welcome. I just knew that we had to have you on, martika and um, towards the the middle portion of the of the show, we're going to really be talking about Really, some, some key issues, or some key, I suppose, what would you call it? I suppose techniques, maybe that could help you to help you or your team, um, if you in a situation where your team is perhaps not not coping as well as they could be. So, um, keep a, keep a listen out for that. But what I really want to know, as I always do with the podcast, is Martika. I want to find out a bit more about you first and how you got to where you are Today, because you've been practicing for a for a number of years now.
Marteka Swaby:
2:33
Yes, so I've been working mental health probably the last 15 years and doing a range of things. So you know, I really started on front line working with people, with fictions and and then working with more complex mental health like personality disorders, bipolar and I am retrained as a psychotherapist nine years ago at Birkbeck a university and my study psychodynamic psychotherapy and organizations and and have been working as a consultant and training in corporate environments for the last five years now. So I'm really taking some of my skills online because I think that in order to reach more people, we really need to have access to stuff much more in the kind of what I would call the preventative end of mental health. So stress, anxiety, depression, things that we all suffer with, and and I think you know, when we speak about mental health like we always assume it's like some kind of really serious issue, like if you google mental health, you see like people at silos yes, look really scary and you know it's still a lot of stigma around mental health, even though you know we are trying to shift that narrative in the UK.
Marteka Swaby:
3:58
But I think there's something that people feel shameful or disappointed in themselves if they are struggling with a mental health issue. So I think that's probably where it's good to start in terms of mental health versus mental illness, because I think that actually 75% of the population I mean you've probably all seen the stats one in four people will have a mental health issue and really what they're talking about is mental illness. So the things that I've just identified, but the reality is 75% of us are in the mental health category. So actually, from the perspective of mental health, we are the people that are healthy and coping and probably have quite a healthy and balanced lifestyle and physically, mentally and socially. But sometimes we drop into that kind of struggling category because something happens in our life, like a bereavement or a divorce or some issues with our children, or something happens unexpected, even COVID.
Marteka Swaby:
5:11
So, that's come along and kind of disrupted all of our lives and the ramifications of this in terms of business and finance is going to impact us mentally and socially. So it's easy for anyone to kind of tip into that and struggling category and actually that's where you need to be emotionally resilient.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
5:36
And what got you into this? Because, I mean, obviously this is where your passion lies and you've helped a lot of people Well, not just individuals, but, like you said, you help corporates as well. What brought you to on this path?
Marteka Swaby:
5:49
So I mean, I really have an interest in this. It's something I love people, I love being around people and I remember when I was like 16, 17, just left school, started working in a bank and thinking, oh my God, I'm going to be doing this till I'm 60. And I need to do something that I love and like I went to study counselling and I remember being like the youngest in the class and thinking nobody's going to take me seriously, you know, in my early 20s, and so I really went out in the field and got a lot of experience and I was talking about, you know, earlier. I was talking about some of the stuff that I've done in terms of frontline and really seeing, like, different walks of life and different people in terms of mental health and mental health issues. And it was later that I came into doing consultancy and working, you know, in large NHS programs to change how we deliver health to like health populations and, more recently, corporates. So my journey's been one, I guess, of grassroots and, you know, working at the frontline, really working with people.
Marteka Swaby:
7:05
But my heart is to help people and I remember when I was working in the NHS as a psychotherapist and one of my patients came in the room and he told me he'd been on a waiting list for like 18 months. Thank you, because this was someone that had a lot of issues, really needed therapy, had been through their GP, been to kind of what we call like a CBT IAP type program. You know where you get six weeks telephone support or you know a counsellor face to face, but very time limited, and you know he had a lot of issues that he really wanted to get underneath and were keeping him stuck in life and I was like you know, wow, the waiting lists are so long in some areas for some people and so actually, how can we get this to people quicker? And I believe that it starts from a preventative perspective and because actually, you know, if we don't have an awareness around mental health and staying resilient, then it's much easier to fall into those kind of struggling and unwell categories.
Marteka Swaby:
8:13
And unfortunately, in 2018, one of my long term friends who we've been to school with, grew up with he really struggled with his mental health and had gone to get help, perhaps wasn't successful and unfortunately he killed himself. And there's so many people you know that are struggling, suffering in silence, like something like 800,000 people every year commit suicide, and you know suicide is not necessary, they are avoidable deaths. So you know we really need to be more open and honest about this stuff and be able to feel comfortable to have these conversations. So really, that's why I'm on a mission to kind of change the narrative on mental health and make it a lot more accessible for just everyday people.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
9:04
And with that mission. Thank you for that, Martik. I think that's great because with that mission, do you think that people are more freely and openly having the conversations now than they were? Are you seeing any sort of like changes, because now you deal with individuals as well as corporates Are you seeing a bit more freedom and a bit more? Some of the stigma has been broken or they're still in place.
Marteka Swaby:
9:29
Yeah, I mean, I think that we've come a long way. You know, I think if you look at the kind of history, particularly in Britain, I think that you know, sort of 50 years ago we had those old school asylums. I mean some people would say that they still exist. When you look at kind of more serious mental health issues, you know where people are under the Mental Health Act and are restrained. That treatment is still kind of similar to the old asylum model. But I think there is a recognition in what I would call clinical, medicalized world that actually mental health isn't always about medication and, you know, treatment in a kind of medicalized model. I think there's a lot more openness and we're a lot more aware now of actually, you know, our nutrition impacts our moods and our mental health and exercise does and all of these alternative holistic approaches. So mindfulness has become much more popular in this day and age. You know yoga and I think people are much more open to kind of spirituality, and I'm not just talking about, you know, organized religion, even though that has massive impacts on mental health and community. I'm talking also about art, music, drama and being able to express yourself creatively. I think there's, you know, much more openness to recognize these things actually impact how we feel and connect as human beings. So I think we have moved on.
Marteka Swaby:
11:06
But when you look at, you know, if you look at kind of traditional corporate models in terms of treatment to mental health, if you look at the best EAP programs so the employee and support assistance programs actually the uptake of those is usually around 7%.
Marteka Swaby:
11:25
In a really good one, you might get it up to sort of 10, 11%.
Marteka Swaby:
11:29
So, and when you Pharma did a report in 2018 around the state of play with mental health across the nation and it was something like 11% of people would tell their line manager if they were struggling with a mental health issue.
Marteka Swaby:
11:47
And then you look at the stats on the back of that, so you know absenteeism and reasons people are off sick and actually musculoskeletal issues is kind of the number one issue and you know, when we look at this, actually how much is stress, how much stress is impacted on those kinds of injuries like back pain and other musculoskeletal illnesses. So they're all interlinked and actually, how do we start to unpick those and understand what it really is? But the reality is most of us wouldn't be comfortable phoning up our boss and saying you know I'm really stressed today. I can't come into work. It's still seen as a bit of a cop out or an excuse that you're making and some people will always use you know, a headache on a Friday afternoon or you know whatever it is to make excuses. But some people are actually really, really genuine and you know how can we make those kinds of conversations and discussions more acceptable and reduce that stigma.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
12:56
Yeah, and I think that's a good segue, isn't it, into the conversation that we want to have really, which is around how we can help managers? I guess in a way to I suppose, I don't know, is it identify those things in their teams, or because, really well, first and foremost that you mentioned at the top the differences between mental health and mental illness. Should we just explore that for a little bit before we dive into the discussion about how, basically, you could help managers or how managers can help their teams? What are those differences between mental health and mental illness? Because you said that was it. 75% of us fall into that mental health category.
Marteka Swaby:
13:47
Yeah, so I think typically we look at mental health and, like I said, we think about mental health as mental illness. So you know we have this kind of stigma around the word mental health and actually I see mental health and what I teach in the programs that I offer is actually mental health around. I call mental fitness. So sleep, nutrition, fitness, stress, anxiety and all those kinds of I would call lower level mental health issues that we can all tip into the struggling or unwell side. But actually when we think about mental health, often we think about mental illness and mental illness being something that's more formally diagnosed and recognised like bipolar disorder or personality disorder or suicide and mental health.
Marteka Swaby:
14:48
So the more people fall into this kind of mental health and mental health problems, the more people that fall into this kind of mental health and mental health problems and the more serious end of the spectrum.
Marteka Swaby:
15:01
And I'm not saying that those things are important and we shouldn't have an awareness of them, but actually I think from a preventative perspective, to stop people falling into the more serious of the spectrum and actually if we could increase the awareness of how to stay mentally fit and healthy there and recognise when you're perhaps working under a bit too much pressure. Actually we can really have an impact on that, whereas I think once you tip into being unwell and mental illness, the trajectory or recovery is much longer. So I think to have the most impact and we definitely need to focus on the healthy coping end of the spectrum the 75% as opposed to mental illness. And if you like reading papers and you're interested in that sort of stuff, keys and Hubbert have got a really good paper on that around the mental health spectrum and they talk a lot about kind of how to you know the messaging around healthy and balanced lifestyle for physical, mental and social wellbeing.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
16:16
I'll have to refer to that, I think, in the show notes, because I think I'm sure there will be people out there who are interested in this, whether from a point of view of being a manager or being in that situation themselves. I think it's important that we link to that, so I'll get the link from you at the end of the show so we can include that. What's some of the? Sorry? Go ahead, martika.
Marteka Swaby:
16:34
The important thing is and what I kind of want to bring home is actually mental health. We all have mental health, you know we all have it, and it's not something that's out there or affects somebody else. We all have mental health.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
16:49
No, I can imagine, and I think it's probably like you said, that 75% is a big number and I'm sure there are people who have issues that perhaps they don't recognise in themselves or probably they don't recognise in other people who are on their team, and they just soldier on and I suppose that's the whole. You know the British mentality, which I suppose has changed a bit, having that stiff up a lip and just sort of really digging in there and getting on with certain things, you know, but it doesn't always Things just get worse, don't they?
Marteka Swaby:
17:22
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're a home worker as well or remote working, you used to work in kind of by yourself and on your own initiative. I think you perhaps have more of a valence tendency to just get on with stuff, because actually that's why you're most of the time working remotely is because you are a kind of go-getter and can, you know, get on with things and don't necessarily need that environment where you're kind of you know, in a structured environment where you're given tasks and told what to do, that you can, you know you can think quite easily independently. And I think one of the challenges are, when you work remotely or independently actually is a susceptibility to kind of isolation or loneliness and actually connection. Community is one of the biggest things people look for in terms of improving their mental health. They want a community that they can connect with and that provides support. I mean, in my years of working in this field and you know where you see people recover and get better and really change their lives are people that are connected into something beyond the kind of treatment, if you like, all the mental health kind of medicalized pathway in terms of medication and go to the doctor, psychiatrist, therapist for treatment. It needs to be much broader than that. It really needs to be integrated into our you know, into our community and to our social networks. So I think there's probably a susceptibility to not ask for help if you're struggling.
Marteka Swaby:
19:07
And also if you're a manager managing remote workers, it's really hard sometimes to notice changes in your team or notice those early morning signs. So, you know, for persons, behavior changes and they have decreased productivity or performance or a low morale, and I think it's much harder to recognise that when you're not in the same space with someone seeing them every day and because there's not that connection. And so I guess, as managers, as remote workers, how do you create those communities, those connections with your staff, with each other, to have that? I know personally. I mean I homework a lot and one of the things that I'm much more proactive with as a business owner is having networks and being accountable to a network, a community, a mentor. So I always have a mentor I find that really helps me to stay accountable and focused and where I can be really open and honest and also a community of other like minded people that are in a similar situation. You can just reach out to them and have a meet-up.
Marteka Swaby:
20:30
I know with lockdown that's changing that and also for me, I'm part of a shared working space where I go and work and I see regular people.
Marteka Swaby:
20:42
But I've really had to make an effort since I transitioned to working at home. In the last five years I've really had to make an effort in terms of my network kind of outside of work and maintaining that network and putting more of an effort into having regular meet-ups with colleagues, with friends, with other professionals and all my routines that go around that. So, like my gym workouts, I've got a group of friends from the gym that I see regularly. Obviously now with lockdown we are not able to do that, but before that and the things that you enjoy that you make sure you schedule in those activities that you like and enjoy. So a lot of that's been done on Zoom now and I know people are trying to get to that, having Zoom fatigue. But yeah, once we get back to the new normal or going out again, it's like how do you have those connections outside of your being kind of remote working, potentially by yourself all day or just with your family?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
22:02
Going back to what you said about warning signs, because, like you said, there's not as much contact when you're working remotely. You don't have those spontaneous interactions where you can observe somebody's body language in the same way that you would, as if they were right in front of you. How do you then begin to? I know you mentioned productivity levels, but how do you spot those warning signs? What are the symptoms that you could potentially look out for? Are they any physical, or how do they sort of show themselves?
Marteka Swaby:
22:38
So I think it's really one of the things that people ask me all the time is around how to have conversations about mental health. How do you bring it up, how do you have these discussions and what do you say? People ask me all the time what do you say? And the reality is that you can't really script this. That's the truth. So anyone that tells you you can, they're not telling you the truth. But what I want you to think about is a frame, and I want you to think about a frame in terms of the cycle of change and the idea that actually, people are either not aware that they need to change and have no idea of change and what we call that pre-contemplative or they do have an awareness and they want to take some kind of action, but they're not sure yet, or they're not sure how to do it, or they might be taking an action, but actually, if someone's taking an action and doing something, then I'd say that they're pretty kind of well equipped and doing something about their issues, and so what you have to listen out for is actually what we call like change talk conversations, and the motivation that people express and their commitment to change can really be heard in what they say, and this just doesn't apply to mental health. This can apply to any manager managing a team, and what I would say was really listen out for those kinds of change talk statements, because people that are contemplating or thinking about change will have a desire and a reason and a need to do something and they will be expressing that in the way that they talk and they'll be taking action or thinking about taking action. So they'll be talking about their commitment and activation to change.
Marteka Swaby:
24:40
But those that aren't aware, I think we have to be much more proactive and that's why I think it's really important to have preventative mental health, that you, just as a norm, you have certain things on the agenda, so it could be that one month you're talking about sleep hygiene, another month you could be talking about fitness, another month about stress and actually being proactively, bringing up these conversations and asking people how they're feeling, what's going on for them, and really kind of listening to what they're saying back. So I think it's really important to be able to listen and I think we'll get into some of the listening stuff in a bit but to be able to listen to what people are saying, to kind of cue where they are in terms of what's going on for them, because you don't have that daily contact and you don't have those opportunistic chats. You know in front of the water fountain or in the kitchen making a coffee, or you know when you're passing in the corridor. So it's been much more intentional about those check-ins and how you use them.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
25:56
And in terms of those check-ins, I think, especially now where we've just like forced to be on, you know Zoom all the time. I say we're forced, but more and more people, who perhaps aren't used to these kinds of video conversations, are becoming, like you mentioned, having the fatigue as a result of these conversations. How do we then make sure we strike a balance between, you know, having these change-tort conversations, so that the person on the other end of the line doesn't then experience that sort of scenario?
Marteka Swaby:
26:33
Yeah, I really encourage you to up-up-scale as a manager and I think that I think kind of like facing and having these types of conversations is going to be part of kind of your day-to-day conversations.
Marteka Swaby:
26:50
I don't think you necessarily have to plan a special meeting around this. It can be just in what you do day-to-day. And I do think one of the competencies of leaders, of managers going forward, is going to be able to support and build the emotional resilience of themselves and their teams, because they're going to need it to be productive. Have healthy, resilient teams and teams that feel comfortable, or individuals that feel comfortable to kind of hold their hand up and say I'm really struggling today or I'm struggling this week, and to have those kind of very open and transparent conversations. And we can only start to have those open and transparent conversations if we have leaders who are going to acknowledge that and open up those kinds of conversations.
Marteka Swaby:
27:44
And some people won't want to talk about it, and that's fine. And I'm not saying that you have to force it, absolutely not. But I do think it's giving people opportunity. I like that saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, but you can make them thirsty and that's our job. Our job as leaders, as managers, is to make people thirsty. So if they decide to take you up on it, that's great. If they don't, they know that that boundary is there. So it's all about how we position this and how we integrate and embed it as part of our everyday conversations.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
28:25
So yeah, so what you're saying, it's an ongoing thing that doesn't necessarily have to be a structured thing. It's something that a manager should have as part of their skillset, or at least develop as part of their skillset, so that they can build that resilience their own personal resilience as well as their own team's resilience as well. And where that resilience is concerned, I mean, what's I'm trying to think of the sorts of things that I do to build my own resilience. I don't know if I do those things consciously or not, but are there any sort of specific things at all, or am I overthinking this now?
Marteka Swaby:
29:01
To build your own resilience.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
29:02
Yeah, or my team for that matter.
Marteka Swaby:
29:06
Yeah, I think that mental fitness, if you like, is centered around kind of probably five key things, like your stress level and being aware of kind of where that is You're nutrition. Are you eating the right food? Because our food impacts our moods, that's the reality of it. Are we sleeping enough? Because sleep has a huge impact on our resilience? And then what I would call within the nutrition is fitness as well exercise and movement.
Marteka Swaby:
29:43
I'm not talking about going to join a crossfit gym and be like hardcore. Even just getting out for a walk outside in the fresh air, that impacts our sleep, that impacts our fitness. You know, are we moving enough? Because I think that's another thing about remote working. I mean, sometimes I'll look at my step count and I'd be like, oh my God, I've been like literally sitting at my desk all day. I haven't moved, and you know proactively going out for a walk or even going out in the garden. I mean we were having a conversation earlier about having a stand up desk and you know, standing for some of the day or walking around a room when we're talking, that we don't have to be sat down at a desk. And the last thing I would say on mental fitness is around community and connection and really building. You know deep connections with other people, so building those relationships.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
30:36
No, that's brilliant and I think it's important, isn't it? Because mental fitness, I suppose, as you put, it, is not just about, like you said, just what's in your mind, but it's about getting all those physical, get your body physiologically right as well, isn't it? As well as the, you know, the other things that we mentioned before, all that you mentioned before, and this thing you mentioned as well, about again a technique that manages you, is it around reflective listening? You said something.
Marteka Swaby:
31:07
Yeah, I think one of the things that I wanted to talk to your listeners today about was around motivational interviewing. So in our we run a half day workshop on this and it's condensed down into some of the things that I've been talking to you about today are part of our mental health awareness training, which I believe that you will post at the end of the show. So, yes, access to that if they're more interested in these things. And we run like a monthly coaching group, so people that want to learn more about these different mental fitness areas you know we teach each month on a specific topic and not so people can, you know, make these huge lifestyle changes. Like I said, it's not about going to join the CrossFit gym and be training like five times a week and, you know, like making sure you've got all your meals prepped and having five meals a day.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
32:06
We're not you know that's like.
Marteka Swaby:
32:07
You know there's nothing wrong with that, but that's for a certain group of people. What we teach and what we think about is how you can make this part of what you do and embed it into your kind of everyday lifestyle exactly. So these advanced technique listening techniques and motivational interviewing again, it's about having an awareness of this technique and embedding it into your routine. And I think the point of these advanced listening techniques is around having a collaborative conversation actually and strengthening people's intrinsic motivation and commitment. So what motivates you inside and really as a leader, as a manager, as an individual, if you can tap into you know what motivates you intrinsically inside, you know it's much easier to have better conversations with people and much more smoother collaborations in terms of getting things done and getting the best out of people. And the spirit of motivational interviewing is really about, you know, really like the idea that you're not the expert and that actually is a collaboration. So you know it's trying to get a mutual understanding and just understanding that person from their narrative and what they need, as opposed to your own kind of agenda. Because I think as managers I mean I've managed large teams before and much smaller teams and I've managed teams from a as a line manager, but also in a way where you have to influence people that you don't necessarily have their, you're not their direct line manager and it's so important to understand you know what's important to them, because actually it helps you to frame. You know what your, what it is that you're get wanting them or asking them to do, if you can frame it from their narrative and not your own narrative. And so there's something about drawing out from that person, as opposed to imposing your views on them, and really understanding you know what, what, what, what, what is it? What is the change that's needed to happen here? What you know, what is it that you are trying to achieve through this conversation with that person, and really like getting them to think about it from an autonomous perspective and not your authority.
Marteka Swaby:
34:42
So I think you know, if you are remote working and you are influencing and working with, especially if you're working with more senior teams who you know have a lot more autonomy, this is a really helpful technique to start to have some of those change or even complex conversations that often we like to skirt around or not quite address, and I think mental health is one of those, because people always are worried about saying the wrong thing and that they're going to, you know, put their foot in it and offend your upset people.
Marteka Swaby:
35:19
So I think it's quite a delicate conversation, but I'm just going to give you four basic skills that you can use and that is called OARS, o-a-r-s, and that really OARS consists of open-ended questions, affirmations so appreciating people and coming from an encouraging perspective. Reflective listening so being able to paraphrase and rephrase what people have said. And then summarizing, just to make sure that you understand what people are saying. And if you can fit O's into conversations, you will find you have much more productive and better conversations when it comes to any kind of conversation, not just mental health, but any kind of conversation, because it helps people to feel heard and that you're actually really listening to them, and it's one of the ways that you can have a very empathetic and connected conversation.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
36:24
Could you get? I mean, I don't know if it's possible in this setting. Could you perhaps just like give a little example, maybe, of how a conversation might go? I don't know. Is it possible to do that now? I don't know.
Marteka Swaby:
36:36
So between me and you, yeah, why not yeah? Okay, so tell me okay. So what's the scenario then? Maybe talk to me about something that's you're struggling with at the moment a challenge.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
36:52
So, yeah, my kids, I'm working from home and I'm also my kids' teacher, so I'm trying to balance my work with my home schooling basically.
Marteka Swaby:
37:04
Okay, so how are you managing that now then?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
37:08
It did start off a little bit tricky, because I wasn't really sure if I was doing the right thing where my teaching was concerned, and then it kind of sort of filtered into my work, so I was losing time with my daily work.
Marteka Swaby:
37:23
So how would you like that to be different? What's the balance that you're seeking?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
37:30
Well, apart from going back to school, I suppose I want to be able to, I suppose, understand that my kids are getting everything that they need out of the day, but at the same time being as productive as I possibly can under the circumstances.
Marteka Swaby:
37:45
I mean what's productive for you. What would that look like?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
37:50
I suppose what I normally do is just have like a checklist of things that I need to get done in the day, and I suppose a couple of weeks ago I wasn't really getting those things done, so I suppose now it is improving. So productivity for me is like crossing those things off the list and getting them done.
Marteka Swaby:
38:06
So it sounds like you're doing a good job then, like you are getting some things done, but there's room for improvement.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
38:13
Yeah, that's how I'd sum it up as well. I'm much better now when it comes to condensing their learning into, say, like three hours, where it used to be six hours, or like four to six hours. I'm condensing it down now, so I'm now sort of striking a nice balance between the work and the actual school work for them. So it is getting better, yeah.
Marteka Swaby:
38:37
And are they enjoying it more? Do they feel more?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
38:41
Yeah, enjoying it. In inverted commas yes, they're enjoying it. They're getting it done. Yeah, it's much better now. It's less stressful, because it used to be quite stressful and then that stress would filter out into them and then they wouldn't want to do the work. So it's now becoming a bit more sort of cooperative, should we say. And they're enjoying it's a bit more trying to inject a bit of fun into it too.
Marteka Swaby:
39:04
So it sounds like it sounds like you are actually managing this much better and that you do have strategies in place Perhaps it's worth thinking about. Maybe they're not perfect and that they're perhaps got room to. You've got room to improve and grow, but you sound like you're trying new things and seeing how that works.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
39:28
Yeah, and I am trying new things. I'm always, I suppose I suppose you have to, especially I've got a six year old, so if I suppose if I was doing the same thing every day, she'd really quickly get quite bored. So yeah, I'll keep trying new things, just to see what works, I guess. And then, like I said, the work is improving, so it's becoming less of a worry now.
Marteka Swaby:
39:53
I think it's when we try new things that we have to often cut ourselves a bit of slack in terms of that process of transitioning into the new way of doing things, but I think that you have a framework in place that's serving you well. It's not a perfect one. It seems that you are much more productive, and your children are getting homeschooled. I guess I wonder what your idea of productive is, though, for them, because I think that some parents perhaps are considering that they need to kind of give them the level of teaching that they had when they were at school, and actually maybe the standard is being good enough. I don't know.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
40:44
Yeah, and I've come to realize that I suppose at the beginning again on reflection I used to want to try as hard as possible to follow the same sort of routine that they would at school, but I've come to learn that, like you said, it's about them, I suppose, enjoying it. So it is getting to that point now where they're starting to enjoy it a bit more and it's not as intense as it was before, and I think the outcomes for them really is just that enjoyment, I guess. So, yeah, it is getting better.
Marteka Swaby:
41:21
Have we demonstrated?
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
41:23
Yeah, I think that's pretty good. It is because I think that anybody who's listening to this I hope will any manager listening to this will be able to hear how you are just sort of giving me the platform to say what I've been doing, how I've been doing it and, at the same time, suggesting things, rather than trying to impose things on me. I think that was pretty useful for me, let alone, hopefully, anybody out there listening. So, thank you.
Marteka Swaby:
41:56
I think I started using some of the more advanced techniques in that, in terms of I was consciously developing the discrepancy, which is a technique of motivational interviewing, because I think where you started was that you were basically failing as a parent from a productivity perspective.
Marteka Swaby:
42:20
Actually, you then went on to say well, actually I've been trying different things and it's been getting better over the weeks and it's not perfect, but it is improving. And I think sometimes when we're going on a longer change journey, we're so focused on the end result that we don't see all the incremental progress that we make. And sometimes it's really good to kind of sound that out and to be able to express empathy to someone and really kind of go actually you are doing really well, you have implemented a lot of things. Where is it that you're expecting to be? Because I think sometimes people's expectations and where they actually are is very different, and so it's been able to celebrate that person's small incremental steps and encourage them to carry on and see that actually it's not as terrible as they think in their mind.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
43:22
So true because even a couple of weeks ago, what I'd say is what I was thinking about was, rather than incremental steps, I was thinking about how are they going to be when they go back to school because of all this teaching I've been doing with them, not how I've been doing step by step, but it was like so yeah, that is so true and good, it's great, it's great. So, if anybody's listening to this, I think well, I'm sure people are listening to this then it's about the little steps in between that lead you to what the end result is, rather than just sort of putting all that pressure on yourself just to get that end result, rather than just sort of focusing on the steps in between. So no, martika, thank you.
Marteka Swaby:
44:04
Done is better than perfect. I think that we often strive for the finished product or the perfection, and actually it's a process, isn't it? And we have to be okay with being good enough, and sometimes being good enough is the best. So, yeah, well done for being, for having a full time job and teaching.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
44:28
Oh my gosh, it hasn't been easy.
Marteka Swaby:
44:30
Everyone's going to have a new appreciation of teachers.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
44:33
I think, Tell me about it, Tell me about it. So I mean just to end up, what's things looking like on the horizon for benevolent health? What are your plans for the foreseeable future?
Marteka Swaby:
44:46
Mental health awareness weeks coming up this month, 18th to the 24th of May. We've got a mental fitness summit. So we have done a load of. We've had a load of conversations with different people in different industries around but, you know, really building resilience. So we've been looking at. Homeschooling was a big topic. We've got some excellent resources in there and we did some stuff with you on remote working. We've got a load of mental fitness talks in there. It's totally free to register and to look at the content If you want to keep the content as charged for an access pass, which I mean it has a stress program in there.
Marteka Swaby:
45:31
So, and that will go out on Mental Health Awareness Week and I can say under the links if people want to register before then, and so we are also.
Marteka Swaby:
45:42
We've also got the coaching program for people that want to learn more around mental health awareness and building up their awareness in the workplace, or that they want to do something in their community in terms of you know, if you're into, if you've got expertise in sleep or stress or holistic, like a yoga teacher, mindfulness, or we're looking to work with other experts who are interested in improving their knowledge around mental health.
Marteka Swaby:
46:20
So we've been launching a peer mentoring platform in June and we always have our podcast, better Mental Health, each month. We usually focus on a topic like this month we've been looking at sleep Because I think that's been a big issue for people through the pandemic, and so we're always interested in having those mental health conversations. We just talk to everyday people and really understand better around mental health. So that's the things that we've got coming up over the next three few months. But if you I'll send the slides that I've talked from around the conversation today and you register for a free training, I can add you to our newsletter and then you'll get all of the updates around stuff that's going on month to month within Benevolent Health.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
47:20
So you're not busy, then Martika Not busy, not?
Marteka Swaby:
47:23
busy.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
47:24
Not busy in the slightest.
Marteka Swaby:
47:26
I think mental health is really needed at the moment. I mean, certainly a lot of the reading that I've been doing around this is that they're predicting kind of post-lockdown sort of 69 months time there'll be a kind of a rocket in mental health issues.
Marteka Swaby:
47:45
So I think it's really important to have good content, good support, early. I think I totally believe in prevention. I've done this for years and I mean I talked to you earlier about suicide, which is obviously the really extreme end of this, but where we invest in good prevention programs, the suicide rate is a lot lower. So we know this stuff works. We know if people have the skills and the know-how before something happens, that they actually navigate it much better and much quicker. And organisations are really missing a trick If they've got people off work sick long term. If you can build their emotional resilience, they will come back to work much quicker and healthier. So this stuff works. So I think it's really important to raise the awareness of it.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
48:42
And that is certainly why I wanted to have you on here today. I'm just looking for a benevolent health website as well, so I'm going to put that in the show notes too. But I wanted to thank you, martika, for speaking with us today, and we'll put a link, as I said, in terms of the programs. We'll also put a link to your website as well in terms of mental health week, and we'll be keeping an eye on what you're doing, absolutely, I mean if anyone.
Marteka Swaby:
49:07
If this has touched anyone personally and anybody struggling individually and they've not been able to speak to anyone, I'm really happy to do a free consultation and I will give you a link to my diary for free consultations like 15 minutes just to talk about any individual issues. If something's popped up that we've talked about that really resonates and impacts people, so I'm more than happy to do that. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really feel privileged to talk to your audience and I hope that you've enjoyed it. I hope that this is stuff that you're able to implement absolutely and it makes a difference to you and your teams. Most importantly.
Alex Wilson-Campbell:
49:54
I think that's what it's all about. So it's benevolent health, benevolent health, dot co dot, uk, martika sway be thanks. So much, martika, thank you, bye, bye.
Marteka Swaby:
50:05
Bye, bye.