RWL229 How to Build a Successful Remote Company During Uncertain Times w/ Sondre Rauch CEO

Building Remote Companies in Uncertain Times

Alex WIlson-Campbell
0:00

It's

Alex

from

Remote

Work

Life

and

the

Remote

Work

Life

podcast
.

I

hope

you're

doing

well
,

wherever

you

may

be

in

the

world
.

Today

I

have

a

great

guest

with

me
.

Today

I

have

Sondra

Rausch
,

who

is

the

CEO

of

Safety

Wing
,

and

now

Safety

Wing

is

a

really

important

business
,

especially

in

these

times

of

uncertainty

that

we

are

facing

in

the

world
.

Safety

Wing

essentially

provides

travel

and

medical

insurance

for

remote

teams

and

for

nomads
,

and

it's

essentially

Safety

Wing

is

on

a

mission

to

build

a

social

safety

net

on

a

global

basis
.

But

I

think
,

as

I

said

before
,

the

time

that

we're

in

now
,

I

thought

it

important

for

me

to

have

this

conversation

with

Sondra

because

of

what

we're

going

through

at

the

moment
.

So
,

sondra
,

I

wanted

to

say

thank

you

so

much

for

your

time

and

for

joining

me

today
.

Sondre Rasch
0:59

Thank

you

for

having

me
,

Alex
.

It's

a

pleasure

to

be

here
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
1:03

Sondra
,

as

always
,

I

like

to

find

out

because

I

mean

Sandra's

not

only

does

he

run

Safety

Wing
,

he

has

a

lot

of

experience

when

it

comes

to

not

just

his

individual

remote

work

career
,

but

also

his

team
.

He's

growing

his

team
,

guiding

his

team
,

leading

his

team

and

working

remotely
.

So

I

thought

there's

two

benefits

to

having

Sondra

on

the

call

today
.

But

first

and

foremost
,

I

want

to

know
,

sondra
,

a

bit

more

about

you
.

How

did

you

come

to

be

CEO

of

Safety

Wing
?

Sondre Rasch
1:42

well
,

that

is

interesting
.

So

my

I

am

from

norway

and

very

early

on

I

was

interested

in

starting

things
.

So

as

a

teenager

I

had

this

little

web

hosting

company

I

tried

to

set

up

in

my

room

and

offered

customer

service

on

my

newly

acquired

mobile

phone
.

So

I've

always

been

attracted

to

entrepreneurship

and

technology

and

lived

sort

of
.

You

know
,

I

was

like

the

first

generation

that

grew

up

on

the

internet

a

little

bit

and

I

had
,

you

know
,

I

started

that

together

with

a

Dutch

and

a

Romanian

friends

and

we

collaborated

on

something

called

IRC
,

which

is

like

Slack
,

but

back

then

kind

of

looked

the

same
,

and

so

that's

the

sort

of

genesis

for

my

interest
.

And

then

I

had

a

bit

of

a

detour
,

studied

economics
,

work

as

a

policy

advisor
,

and

then

I

thought

that

I

had

to

return

to

my

roots

and

then

I

started

another

company

and

like

what's

the

fastest

way

to

become

CEO

is

to

start

your

own

company
,

and

then

that's

successful
.

I

guess

like

what's

the

fastest

way

to

become

CEO

is

to

start

your

own

company
,

and

then

that's

successful
.

That's

how

you

do

it
.

Sondre Rasch
2:50

So

I

started

a

previous

company

and

then

I

learned

there

I

kind

of

stumbled

upon

the

problem

of

safe

doing
,

which

is
,

of

course

that

was

a

remote

freelancer

platform
.

We

wanted

to

provide

benefits

for

people

on

that

platform
.

Nobody

offered

it

and

then

kind

of

realized

that

gap
.

So

I

had

already

kind

of

known

from

my

teenage

years

I've

discovered

this

thing

that

there

is

this

internet

economy

growing

up

and

that

has

many

problems

and

opportunities
,

but

essentially

the

infrastructure
.

Sondre Rasch
3:22

What

I

discovered

there

was

that

the

infrastructure

that

supports

the

global

labor

market

doesn't

exist
.

Instead

you

have

the

sort

of

infrastructure

that

is

nationally

based
.

So

that's

why

we

couldn't

buy

health

insurance

for

all

the

freelancers

on

our

platforms
,

because

it

was

spread

out

all

over

the

world
.

So

then

that

was

kind

of

the

problem

discovery

moment
.

And

then

uh
,

eventually

left

the

company

to

found

safety

wing

because

we

found

it

so

important

that

somebody

had

to

do

it

and

nobody

was

doing

it
.

We

felt

it

was

a

bit

overdue

actually
.

Uh
,

so
,

yeah

so

and

then

we

launched

that

and

uh
,

and

then

it's

been

a

great

journey

till

today
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
4:04

And

for

you
,

because

I

mean
,

did

you

always

think

to

yourself

then
,

given

that

you've

started

different

companies
,

did

you

think

to

yourself

while

you're

studying

your

economics

degree

that

you

would

one

day

have

your

own

business
,

or

did

you

have

designs

on

a

different

path
?

Sondre Rasch
4:24

Yeah
,

no
,

I

thought

I

would

start

my

own

tech

startup
,

so

I

did

have

that

quite

narrowly
.

So

I

was

curious

about

policy

work

and

I'm

interested

in

economics
.

I'm

generally

interested

in

systems

like

I
.

I'm

interested

in

that

kind

of

thing

I

still

am

for

sure
,

uh
,

but
,

but

no
,

I

do

feel

like

I

am
,

at

heart
,

an

entrepreneur
.

So

even

when

I've

had

jobs
,

I

still

am

like

a

little

entrepreneur

on

the

job
.

I

guess
,

it's

like

I'm

kind

of

which

you

know

I

believe

has

pros

and

cons
.

If

you're

my

boss
,

yes
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
5:08

I

know

what

you

mean
.

Sondre Rasch
5:10

Yeah
,

you

know
,

I

like

to

do

my

own

things
.

I

think

I

have

good

ideas

and

I

like

to
,

you

know
,

and

I

have

many

ideas

and

I
,

you

know
,

like

to

do

them
.

So

if

I

were

put

in

a

situation

where

I

was

just

being

told

what

to

do

in

detail
,

I

couldn't

be

happy
,

and

that's

definitely

a

big
.

I

don't

think

I

have

any

choice
.

I

probably

have

to

be

a

founder
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
5:36

Yeah
,

and

there's

that

side

of

things
,

but

there's

also

the

remote

work

aspect

of

things
,

because

you've

worked

remote

for

quite

a

while
,

haven't

you
?

It's

something

that's

been

part

of

you

for

quite

some

time
.

Tell

us

more

about

that
.

Sondre Rasch
5:53

Yeah
,

I

mean

both

Safety

Wing

and

my

previous

company
,

supersight
,

was

and

is

fully

remote

companies
.

So

I

have

in

a

way
,

built

and

scaled

fully

remote

companies
.

So

I

have

in

a

way
,

built

and

scale

to

remote

companies

and
,

of

course
,

myself

worked

remotely

in

that

period
.

So

I'm

fully

convinced

but

I've

been

fully

convinced

about

that

for

a

long

time

that

that

makes

sense
,

that

it's

the

best

way

to

build

a

company

today
,

and

the

only

period

we're

in

is

just

that

period

where

people

are

gradually

discovering

that
.

Sondre Rasch
6:38

So
,

yeah
,

I

love

building

remote

companies

and

I

think

the

benefits

are

huge

for

my

own

personal

life

and

the

you

know

people

who

work

there
.

You

know

the

greatest

benefit

of

having

a

remote

job

is

that

you

are

flexible

to

move
.

Uh
,

whether

that

is

because

you

want

to

be

on
,

you

know
,

live

a

more

nomadic

lifestyle

where

you

move

often
,

or

maybe

it's

because

you're

going

to

move

to

the

mountains
,

the

beach

or

to

move

close

to

family
,

you

know

that

freedom

is

immense

and

when

you

couple

that

with

very

often

that

when

you

live

like

that
,

you

have

a

lower

cost

of

living

as

certainly
,

as

opposed

to

working

in

London

or

San

Francisco
,

you

get

a

huge

economic

benefit

as

well

as

personal

preferences

being

met

to

a

very

large

degree
,

and

for

me

personally

that

is

something

that

has

just

been

a

requirement
.

Sondre Rasch
7:36

And

there

are
,

of

course
,

challenges

to

building

a

remote

company
,

but

we've

solved

those

mostly
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
7:42

And

you're

Norwegian
,

aren't

you

as

well
?

And

you

moved

from

norway

to

to

america
.

Was

that

in

pursuit

of

your
,

your
,

your

dreams

and

ambitions

to

become

an

entrepreneur
?

Or

was

it

again

just

because
,

yeah
,

well
,

what

was
?

What

was

that

reason
?

Sondre Rasch
8:00

yeah
,

uh
,

no
,

it

was

so

when

I

was

a

teenager
.

I

discovered

Silicon

Valley

early

on
,

so

I

had

already

sort

of

as

a

teenager
,

this

idea

that

I

wanted

to

move

to

Silicon

Valley
.

Actually
,

I

also

paid

close

attention

to

Y

Combinator

when

that

started

out

and

there's

sort

of

social

network

hacker

news
,

but

so

no
,

I

always

kind

of

picked

up

on

like

oh

there's

something

going

on

over

there

that

seems

to

be

the

place

to

be
,

and

but

the

way

practically

I

moved

but

I

was

planning

to

get

there

at

some

point
.

That

was

kind

of

like

the

way

I

knew

growing

up

is
.

I

knew

I

was

going

to

start

at

TechSite
.

I

knew

that
,

you

know

I

wanted

to

move

here
.

But

the

way

it

happened

was

that

we

actually

applied

to

Y

Combinator

for

my

previous

company

Superside

and

when

we

got

in

we

had

to

move
.

That

was

how

I

moved
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
9:04

Okay
,

and

you

obviously

made

a

big

success

of

it
.

And

you

you've

not

just

the

entrepreneur

side

of

things
,

but

the

business

side

of

things

as

well
,

you've
.

You've

got

a

great

brand
,

you've

established

a

great

team
,

you've

figured

out

the

so-called

secrets

on

in

terms

of

working

remotely
,

um
,

so

you've

made

a

you

you've
,

you've

been

there

and

done

it
,

you've

walked

the

talk
,

all

those

kinds

of

things
.

But

along

the

way
,

I'm

guessing

there

must

have

been
,

there

must

have

been

challenges

that

you've

had

to

face

and

overcome
.

What
?

What

were

the

main

challenges

for

you

in

that
,

in

that

period
?

Sondre Rasch
9:43

Yeah
,

I

think

my

greatest

challenge

in

working

remotely

and

also

doing

a

startup

remotely
.

So

I

should

say

when

I

first

started

out
,

like

when

I

first

quit

my

job
,

that

was

a

sort

of

scary

moment

because

I

had

a

job

then

I

was

policy

advisor

at

the

government

of

Norway

and

I

was

trying

to

kind

of

kick

myself

in

the

butt

to

start

a

company
.

But

it's
,

of

course
,

scary

and

I

had

like

a

great
,

such

a

cushy

job

because

I

was

policy

advisor
.

It

was

a

new

unit
,

didn't

really

have

a

boss
.

I

work

in

these

extremely

meaningful
,

exciting

projects
.

It

was

really

excellent
.

Sondre Rasch
10:27

But

I

knew

I

had

to

do

what

I

had

to

do

and

so

I

made

this

decision

to

do

it

and

we

started
.

I

started

a

company

part-time

and

I

had

already

kind

of

worked

out

the

logic

that

if

I

just

got

some

freelancer

income

and

I

moved

to

a

local

like

I

was

thinking

berlin

at

the

time
,

which

was

even

cheaper

than

it

was
,

than

it

is

now

um
,

like

you

could

live

on

like

500

euros

a

month

in

berlin
,

wow

at

the

time
.

Now
,

now

it's

a

little

bit

more
.

Sondre Rasch
10:56

Yeah
,

but

so

the

plan

was

I

started

to

build

like

freelancer

income

in

the

part-time

and

also

to

build

a

company

in

the

part-time

which

became

Superside
,

and

I

started

saving

some

money

to

see

if

I

can

cut

my

costs

and

uh
,

and

then

I

would

move

to

a

low-cost

location

which

would

extend

my

runway

and

the

idea

was

that

I

could

work

like

one

day

a

week

freelancing

uh

enough
,

and

earn

enough

to

kind

of

pay

my

living

so

that

I

could

work

on

the

company

the

rest

of

the

time
.

And
,

um
,

I

still

think

that

plan

was

like

incredible
.

I

would

advise

anyone

else

to

do

the

same

like

I
.

I

totally

nailed

that
.

You

know
,

like

that

plan

was

definitely

the

right

plan
.

I

think

that's

doable

by

almost

anyone
.

Sondre Rasch
11:51

Actually
,

what

I
,

what

I

did

there
,

um
,

as

in
,

to

do

those

different

steps

like

you

try

to

start-time

building

a

freelancer

income
,

to

make

a

plan

to

a

local

location
,

to

save

some

money
,

et

cetera
,

like

it's

doable

by

really

anyone
.

So
,

by

the

way
,

building

a

freelancer

is

very

difficult
.

It's

been

a

lot

of

figuring

out

what

you

want

to

do
.

I

ended

up

doing

writing

for

economics

magazines
.

I

just

did

a

little

bit

of

it
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
12:17

It's

good
,

it's

good
.

Sondre Rasch
12:19

Yeah
,

it

was

great
.

It

was

great
.

It

was

really

random

how

you

get

the

first

customer
,

but

the

point

is
,

when

you

do

a

good

job

with

one

customer
,

that's

kind

of

all

you

need
,

which

it

ended

up

being

anyway
.

I

didn't

do

that

for

very

long

because
,

just

as

I

was
,

I

quit

my

job

and

in

the

intervening

months
,

my
,

the

company

I

started

supersize
.

Basically
,

we

start

working

and

it

was

just

like

a

month

after

quitting

my

job

that

we

got

accepted

to

work

hominator

and

then

at

that

point

it's

like

you're

strapped

into

the

roller

coaster

and

uh
,

and

so

all

this

the

roller

coaster
.

Sondre Rasch
12:52

I

like

it
.

Yeah
,

and

all

that

sort

of

romanticism

of

like

living

hand

to

mouth

in

Berlin

was

a

bit

kind

of

shut

away

to

like
,

you

know
,

starting

a

rocket

ship

in

San

Francisco

and

yeah
,

why

did

I

get

on

this

tangent

again
?

What

was

that
?

I

felt

like

I

lost
.

I

may

need

to

get

back

to

your

question

there
.

No
,

it's

fine

You're

going

in

the

right

direction

Navigating the Rollercoaster of Startups

Sondre Rasch
13:19

.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
13:19

I

suppose

what

I'm

saying

is

the

challenges

that

you've

overcome
.

Essentially
,

it

sounds

to

me

you're

the

kind

of

person

who

plans

what

they're

going

to

do
.

You're

very

strategic

in

what

you're

going

to

do

before

you

actually

take

a

jump
.

You're

more

of

a

I

don't

know

very

pragmatic

and

you

are

very

calculated

in

what

you're

going

to

do

next
.

So

you've

gone

from

being

a

freelancer

to

then

going

to

uh
,

like

you

said
,

the

roller

coaster

of

um

why
?

Combinator
,

starting

safety

wing
.

What

was

that

roller

coaster
?

You

know
?

Sondre Rasch
13:53

tell

us

about

that

roller

coaster
,

because

when

I

picture

a

rollercoaster

I

think

scary
,

exciting
,

scary

exciting

yeah
,

no
,

exactly

that's

exactly

what

what

it

is
,

uh
,

uh

and

uh
,

starting

a

startup
,

especially

one

that

has

speed
,

because

before

you

launch

and

before

you

kind

of

start

to

get

speed
,

you

can

be

in

this

sort

of

beam
.

There

is

this

old

sort

of

aboriginal

creation

myth
,

which

is

sort

of

like

the

dream
,

where

there's

like

the

gods

are

dreaming

up

this

world

and

you

live

in

this

world

and

then

you

enter

into

reality

and

what

you

enter

into

are

constraints
.

Yes
,

a
,

it's

shaped

a

lot

by

the

dream

world

and

I

just

found

like

that's

such

a

good

metaphor

for

what

it's

like

pre-launch
,

because

you're

in

this
,

you're

not

in

constrained

by

reality
.

Pre-launch
,

right
,

you're

in

this

very

pleasant

dream

world

and

it's

an

important

time

and

you

know
,

by

all

means

cherish

it
,

but

you

can't

stay

there

forever

because

then

it

becomes

a

delusion
.

But

but

so
,

and

then

you

enter

into

the

real

world

with

your

idea

and

then

you're

supposed

to

kind

of

like

work

with

reality

and

overcome

reality

to

create

this
,

get

to

a

place
,

get

to

a

vision
,

and

on

the

way

there
,

what

you

have

is

like

I

have

no

idea

what

I'm

doing
.

Sondre Rasch
15:25

I

had

a

couple

of

things

I

did

really

right

in

the

beginning

which

I'm

almost

lost
,

which

is

so

sad
,

but
,

like

I
,

I

essentially

had

very

high

speed
,

which

it

was

very

good

because

I

did

everything

wrong

before

I

did

it

right
,

wow
,

um

so
,

but

if

you

do

things

fast

enough
,

if

you

try

them

fast

enough

and

I

do

think

that

is

sort

of

the
,

the

kind

of

exercise

of

entrepreneurship

isn't

doing

it

right

the

first

time
,

but

it

is

to

do

it

again
,

try

new

things

so

fast

that

it

looks

like

you

did

it

on

purpose
.

Yeah
,

like

yeah
,

because

by

the

normal

time

someone

tries

one

thing
,

you

try

20

and

one

of

them

worked

and

um
,

so

anyway
,

that

that

was
,

that's

part

of

it
.

And

then
,

of

course
,

it's

like

you
.

You

launch

your

customers
.

You're

constantly

looking

doom

in

the

eye
.

Your

product

almost

always

suck
.

This

is

not

true

for

the

beginning

of

safe

doing
.

That's

the

only

kind

of

difference
.

I

did

a

lot

right

in

safe

doing
,

because

I

took

what

worked

from

my

first

company

and

I

applied

it

and
,

maybe

most

of

all
,

I

knew

what

didn't

matter
,

so

I

didn't

spend

time

on

that
.

That

was

incredibly

useful

the

second

time

around

just

to

not

waste

my

time

on

things

that

what

matters

is

the

team
,

the

product

In

the

beginning
.

That's

what

matters
.

Is

it

a

product

people

want

to

buy
,

is

the

team

great
,

and

then

later

growth

once

you're

live

and

kind

of

out

of

the

beta

phase
.

Sondre Rasch
16:59

But

of

course
,

what's

particularly

wrenching

is

when

your

product

is

not

good
,

when

you're

not

growing
.

What

makes

you

happy

when

you're

growing
?

Fundraising
.

What's

not

happy

when

you're

rejected
,

what

makes

you

happy

when

you're

accepted
?

Fundraising

is

particularly

harrowing
,

I

think
.

I

mean

I've

done

it

many

times

now
,

but

it

definitely

feels

like

a

very

high
.

It's

like

dating
.

I

suppose

it's

very

high-stakes

salesmanship
.

So

what

is

that

rollercoaster

like

coaster
,

like

yeah
,

it's

like

those

things
.

It's

a
.

It's

a
.

Sondre Rasch
17:42

You're

on

your

own
,

you're

in

the

wild
,

you

don't

know

what's

going

to

work
,

you

don't

know

your

environment

you

have

to

figure

it

out

by

trying

things

yes

and

and

most

of

the

time

it

doesn't

work
,

and

you

have

to

just

not

be

deterred

by

that

rejection
,

whether

it's

from

customers

or

investors

or

like

reality

itself
.

But

I

do

think

it

makes

you

into

an

interesting

person

over

time
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
18:06

No
,

I

can

imagine

yeah
,

I

can

imagine

and

I

think

what

it

looked
.

I

mean
,

obviously

now

you
,

you

started

safety

ring

back

in

2017
,

so

you're

getting

some

stability

there
.

I'm

guessing

now

and

those

that

roller

coaster

ride

is

a

bit

smoother
,

and

am

I

right

in

saying

that
,

or

is

it

still
?

Sondre Rasch
18:27

I

mean
,

yeah
,

um

well
,

you

certainly

have

like

more

of

what

works
,

but

you

always

have

problems

and

the

problems

in

a

startup

are

usually

deadly

right
.

Sondre Rasch
18:45

So

there

are

periods

of

safe

doing

where

things

have

just

worked

remarkably

well
,

and

that

is

actually

true
.

Not

long

after

we

launched
,

we

had

this

lovely

scenario

that

we

launched

Nomad

Insurance

and

it

just

worked

out

of

the

gate
.

Uh
,

like

we

had

word

of

mouth

which

I

think

is

kind

of

like

the

true

market

product

market

fit

out

of

the

gate
,

like

we

were

just

a

couple

of

months

in

and

we

were

observing

just

like

every

day

customers

were

signing

up
,

they

were

coming

from

which

is

sort

of

word

of

mouth
,

and

so

that's

because

we

were

a

bit

ahead

of

the

game

there
.

Sondre Rasch
19:23

that

allowed

us

to
,

in

a

way
,

not

be

as

stressed

out
.

So

that

was

one

very

fortunate

thing
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
19:36

And

from

there

then
.

So

you've

gone

out

of

the

gate

and

you've

done

pretty

well

with

nomad

insurance
.

You've

added

now

different

branches

to

to

safety

wing
.

You've

got

the

nomad

insurance
,

you've

got

remote

health

for

teams

as

well
.

So

you
,

you're

put
,

you're

putting

other

things

out

there
.

Tell

us

about
.

Tell

us

then
,

I

mean

if
,

if

I'm

a

manager
,

and

why

are

these

things
,

I

suppose
,

I

guess
,

important

to

me
?

Now

I

guess

right
?

Sondre Rasch
20:13

um
,

well
,

well
,

you

are

a

manager

and

let's

say

you

have

a

remote

team

and
,

like

many

remote

teams
,

at

least

some

of

your

team
,

and

quite

often

a

large

share
,

is

international
,

because

you

found

them

on

international

job

sites

and

you

hired

the

best

and

you

weren't

too

concerned

with

whether

or

not

they

were

locally

located

to

you
.

Um
,

you

know
,

that's

what

almost

all

companies

that

go

remote
,

they
,

they

kind

of

inevitably

go

down

this

route
.

Um
,

you

know
,

barring

limits

on

time

zones
,

there

isn't

that

much

difference

from

working

with

someone

if

they're

sitting

like

in

I

don't

know

for

in

your

case
,

like

newcastle

or

brosfils

or

romania
,

so
,

uh
,

so

you

end

up

becoming

this

international

employer

and
,

uh

and

uh
,

you

know
,

as

an

employer
,

you
,

you
,

uh
,

you

have

salaries

but

you

also

want

to

have

benefits
.

That's

to

a

varying

degree
,

I

should

say

in

England

that's

less
,

it's

less

important
.

Sondre Rasch
21:31

The

NHS

is

like

a

very

well-developed

thing
,

but

even

in

England

I

do
,

I

have

seen

the

stats

quite

a

lot
,

especially

in

sort

of

like

knowledge

work
.

It

is

kind

of

common

to

also

have

benefits

on

top

of

that
,

like

as

an

extra

perk
.

That's

getting

increasingly

common
.

So

that's

just

one

of

the

problems

you

have

and

once

you

pass

a

certain

number

of

employees

maybe

like

10
,

20
,

you

start

to

feel

the

need

that

like

oh

you

know
,

I

want

to

be

a

proper

employer
.

Like

you

don't

care

about

that

when

you're

like

three

people

and

like

the

founders

and

a

couple

of

freelancers
.

But

you

know
,

as

you

get

more

you

kind

of

you
,

you

feel

like

you

should
,

you

want

to

be

a

serious
,

uh
,

employer

and

you're

not

pleased
.

Sondre Rasch
22:08

You

want

like

to

be

seen

as

a

good
,

a

serious

company

takes

serious

company

that

takes

care

of

your

employees

and

um
,

and

of

course

it's

a

little

bit

extra

to

say
,

in

the

job
.

I'd

like

what

are

the

benefits
?

You

want

the

answer

to

be

yes
,

yes
,

there

are

benefits

in

this

role

and

uh
,

and

it

probably

also

increases

retention

a

little

bit
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
22:32

There

are

some

data
,

although

I'm

not

sure

how

much

people

kind

of

emotionally

care

about

that
,

but

but

there

is

certainly

some

data

to

support

that

I

would

agree

on

that

there's

definitely

because

I

mean
,

I

think
,

even

from

an

anecdotal

experience
,

my

time

in

in

hiring
,

one

of

the

first

questions

I

always

get

asked
,

apart

from

how

much

is

the

salary
,

is

what's

the

you

know
,

what's

the

remuneration

package
,

what

are

the

benefits
?

Alex WIlson-Campbell
22:56

yeah
,

but
,

like

I

said
,

there

is

there

is

data

to

support

it

as

well
.

So

yeah
,

I

think

sorry

I

interrupted

you
.

You

were

saying

Safety

Wing

offers

that

in

there

as

well
.

Sondre Rasch
23:07

Yeah
,

and

so

that's

your

problem
.

You

want

to

have

benefits
.

Well
,

how

do

you

do

it
?

And

Safety

Wing

is

the

answer

to

that

and

it's
,

for

now
,

the

only

answer
.

Sondre Rasch
23:18

If

you

have

this

kind

of

team
,

um
,

so

you

can

go

to

safe

doing
,

you

can

add

your

employees

or

contractors
,

uh
,

and

very

often

they're

contractors

even

though

they're

actually

employees

when

you

work

remotely

because

of

the

legal

hurdles
,

uh
,

without

you

having

a

local

entity
,

and

that

um

and

um
,

and

you

can

add

them

anywhere

in

the

world

and

they

can

also

move

anywhere

in

the

world

and

you

can

add

sort

of

health
,

dental
,

maternity

benefits

to

them
.

When

you

add

more

people
,

you

can

kind

of

like

in

the

dashboard

plus

and

add

them

more

and

remove

when

they're

gone

and

offer

sort

of

like

high

quality

but

very

competitively

priced

Everything

available

in

the

dashboard
.

You

sign

up

sort

of

in

five

minutes

kind

of

situation
.

So

it's

like

a

way

to

solve

that

problem

how

to

offer

good

benefits

to

my

team

in

the

simplest

possible

way

and

the

only

way

for

now

for

these

remote

teams

what

kind

of

benefits

are

you

seeing

now

that

are

typically

offered
,

or

what

do

you

typically

offer

yourself
?

Sondre Rasch
24:27

uh
,

so

the

most

common

is

health

insurance
,

and

then

almost

all

the

companies

we

have

added

actually

also

add

the

dental
,

and

then

it's

like

30
,

40

percent

at

30
,

and
,

uh
,

what

we

call

outpatient
,

which

is

like

physical

therapy

and

other

such

things
.

Uh
,

we

don't

yet

have

retirement
,

that's

coming

next

summer
.

Uh
,

we

have

to

make

this

product

from

scratch

because

they

don't

exist
.

So
,

uh
,

we

don't

have

retirement
,

that's

coming

next

summer
.

That's

gonna
.

It's

a

similar

kind

of

share
.

34

other

potential

ones

are

disability

life
.

There

are

also

other

benefits
,

I

should

add
.

So

now

I'm

talking

about

the

kind

of

the

heavy

lifting
.

Yes
,

yes
,

health

insurance

is

by

far

the

most
.

There

are

also

other

benefits
,

I

should

add
.

So

now

I'm

talking

about

the

kind

of

the

heavy

lifting
.

Yes
,

yes
,

health

insurance

is

by

far

the

most
.

Sondre Rasch
25:10

There

are

also

other

benefits

that

people

think

about

as

benefits
,

vacation

being

the

most

prominent
,

that

people

care

about

the

most
.

Like
,

when

you

see

rankings
,

like

what

do

people

care

about

the

most
,

health

insurance

is

typically

number

one

and

vacation

is

typically

number

two
.

Uh
,

other

benefits

that

are

somewhat

common

and

very

often

comes

up

in

an

onboarding

process

is

laptop
,

yes
,

and

then
,

of

course
,

there

are

those

fairly

low-cost

but

fun

benefits
,

which

is

also

quite

common
,

where

it's

a

small

amount

but

it

can

be

useful
.

That

could

be

like

gym

trip

or

for

remote

work
.

You

can

have

a

remote

work

stipend

for

co-working

space
.

That's

more

expensive

actually
.

You

see

some

of

those
.

But

in

terms

of

generally
,

what

do

people

think

about
?

What

do

people

actually

care

about
?

It's

health

insurance

and

vacation
,

and

then

for

a

lot

of

people

it's

also

the

other

insurances

life
,

disability
,

dental
,

dental

is

actually

very

common

and

retirement

savings
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
26:18

And

talking

about

health

insurance

and
,

given

the

situation

that

we're

in
,

we

can't

really

escape

it
,

can

we

talking

about

it
?

Have

you

seen

any

changes
?

I

mean
,

what

do

things

look

like

before

and

after

Any

changes

that

have

happened

with

Safety

Wing

in

terms

of

the

uptake

of

that
?

Sondre Rasch
26:37

Yeah
,

absolutely

so
.

I

mean

we

saw
,

with

remote

health
,

a

bit

of

an

explosion

in

interest

because

of

COVID
.

A

bit

of

an

explosion

in

interest

because

of

COVID

and

I

don't

know

the

percentage
,

but

like

a

significant

share

of

the

companies

reaching

out

Future of Remote Work and Nomadism

Sondre Rasch
26:56

to

us

have

gone

remote

since
.

Sondre Rasch
26:56

March
.

There

are

different

numbers

on

it
.

Between

five

to

10X

seem

to

be

the

expected

increase

in

the

people

who

work

remotely

before

COVID

and

after

COVID
,

remote

work

and

remote

teams
.

There

seems

to

be

an

explosion
.

In

cities

like

San

Francisco

it's

even

more
.

I

don't

know

what

the

numbers

are
,

but

it

seems

like

every

company

has

gone

remote

permanently
,

or

remote

first
,

or

remote

for

a

couple

of

years
,

which

very

often

will

turn

into

permanently

here
.

So

that's
,

I

would

say
,

the

biggest

driver
.

Then
,

of

course
,

we

have

the

nomads
,

which

was
,

for

us
,

the

first

product
,

which

are
,

by

the

way
,

remote

workers

as

a

subset

of

remote

workers
,

but

they

buy

the

products

individuals
.

Workers

is

a

subset

of

remote

workers
,

it's

uh
,

but

they

buy

the

products

individuals
.

Um
,

there

we

saw

actually

a

drop

of

february

to

march

down
,

like

for

for

us
,

like

20

to

30

percent

down
.

There

were

a

lot

of

them
.

Sondre Rasch
27:55

We

evacuated

ourselves

actually

because

we

covered

that

okay
,

yeah
,

so
,

and

then

uh
,

but

we

got

through

that

quite

well

and

and

we

fared

much

better

than

other

people

who

are

in

the
.

So

no

money

insurance

isn't

strictly

travel

insurance
,

but

it's

adjacent

to

travel

insurance
.

So

no

minute

the

difference

is

there

are

some

differences
,

but

it's

it's

more

of

a

medical

plan

and

you

can

have

it

forever
.

That's

the

biggest

difference
.

So

travel

insurance

you

have

to

like

45

days
,

but

no

money

insurance

is

like

a

subscription
.

That's

like

$37

a

month

and

you

can

have

it

like

for

10

years

or

forever
.

So

a

section

of

Nomads

went

home

but

starting

in

July
,

that

started

ticking

up

and

actually
,

like

in

last

quarter
,

we

had

like

an

83%

growth

in

that

product

and

that

continues
.

So
,

nomads

it's

this

weird

thing

that

has

happened
.

We

had

many

of

these

like

weird

predictions

about

remote

work

and

nomadism

when

we

started

out
.

Sondre Rasch
29:01

One

of

them

was

that

one

of

the

secondary

effects

of

remote

work

is

that

countries

and

cities

would

start

competing

for

nomads
,

remote

workers

and

remote

companies
.

It's

happening

and

that's

happened

so

exactly

like

we

were

predicting
.

That

is

almost

scary
.

So

Sarah

McClendon

did

a

talk

on

Web

Summit

where

she

explained

exactly

how

this

would

be
,

and

it's

completely

played

out

to

the

to

the

wildest

extent
.

Like

there

are

now

I

think

it's

eight
,

nine

countries

where

you

can't

travel

from

the

us

as

a

tourist
,

but

you

can

go

there

as

a

remote

worker

or

nomad
.

They've

made

these

crazy

situations
.

Uh
,

and

now

your

latest
.

You

had

you

had

greece
,

which

took

it

one

level

up
,

where

they

said

50
,

if

someone
,

a

remote

worker
,

were

to

move

to

greece
,

they

would

have

50

tax

break

for

seven

years
,

I

think
.

Sondre Rasch
29:54

So

they

like

adding

it

to

the

next

seven

years

wow

yeah
,

so

that's

really

happening

and

um
,

so

I

do

think

that

so

we're

seeing

a

resurgence

of

nomadism
.

Another

reason

we're

seeing

is

because

all

these

companies

have

gone

remote
,

and

what

I

saw

here

in

San

Francisco

is
,

yeah
,

they

got

suddenly
.

Their

job

was

remote
,

they

didn't

do

something

for

a

few

months
,

but

then

they

started

asking

themselves

wait
,

I

work

remotely
,

I

don't

have

to

live

here
,

they're

paying
.

I'm

paying

an

obscene

amount

for

rent

and

I

don't

like

it

that

much
.

Sondre Rasch
30:25

I
,

I'm

paying

an

obscene

amount

for

rent

and

I

don't

like

it

that

much
,

I'm

only

living

here

because

my

job

is

here

and

you

know
,

some

of

them

went

on

road

trips
,

some

of

them

went

to

another

state
,

but

a

lot

of

them

went

kind

of

nomad
.

They

went

to

Tulum

or

they

went

to

Lisbon

or

Barbados

and

kind

of

switched

to

a

nomad

lifestyle
.

So

we're

seeing

that

resurgence

starting

from

August

and

I

would

expect

sort

of

as

travel

resumes

and

this

sort

of

vaccine

becomes

more

widespread
,

that

that's

only

going

to

accelerate
.

So

next

year

is

going

to

be

the

year

of

the

nomad
,

for

sure
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
30:56

And

I

think
,

places

like

Barbados
.

I

saw

that

they're

offering

and

other

countries

as

well

are

offering

certain

benefits

and

they're

trying

to
,

I

suppose
,

reel

nomads

and

remote

workers

in

with
.

I

suppose
,

work

here

for

a

year
,

and

we'll

give

you

this
,

or

work

here

for

six

months
,

and

we'll

do

that

for

you
.

So

that's

that's

on

the

rise

as

well
,

isn't

it
?

It's

basically

what

you're

saying

yeah
,

yeah
,

absolutely
.

Sondre Rasch
31:20

barbados

was

one

of

those

that

really

went

for

it
.

Uh
,

they

made

this

remote

work

visa
,

which

is

super

easy

to

get
,

and

they've

sort

of

put

in

place

like

the

whole

range

of

public

services

to

make

it

as

attractive

as

possible
.

And

I

know

several

people

there

are

a

couple

of

people
,

even

a

person
,

chris
,

on

the

Safe

Doing

team

which

took

that

offer

and

is

currently

living

in

Barbados
,

so

I'm

guessing

they're

starting

to

get

a

little

nomad

community

going

there

as

well

well

given

the

weather

in

um

in

London
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
31:53

Uh
,

I

could

see

myself

doing

the

same

thing

myself
,

so

yeah

watch

this

space
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
32:00

No
,

it's

good
.

I

mean
,

one

of

the

questions

I

get

asked

quite

a

lot
,

which

you're

kind

of

alluding

to

and

it

seems

like

you've

got

your

finger

on

the

pulse

in

terms

of

what's

going

to

happen

in

the

future

is

that

are

there

any

other

sort

of

like

predictions

that

you've

either

kind

of

foreseen
,

or

any

predictions

that

you

kind

of

know

about
?

Sorry
,

let

me

start

again
.

So

either

predictions

that

you

foresee

that

have

come

true

or

predictions

that

you

that

haven't

yet

sort

of

played

out

yeah
,

absolutely
.

Sondre Rasch
32:35

Well
,

I

mean
,

the

primary

one

is

the

safety

wing

hypothesis
,

because

you

know
,

we

say

we're

building

a

global

social

safety

net

and

and

we

are

but

our

secret

mission
,

which

is

not

that

secret

but

is

that

we

see

that

as

a

platform

for

building

the

first

country

on

the

internet
,

and

and

I

do

think

that

the

inevitable

logic

of

the

thing

the

internet

and
,

if

you

think

it

through
,

goes

in

that

direction

that

these

sort

of

social

structures

will

exist

in

a

way

that's

practical
,

and

that

what

will

inevitably

happen

in

the

future

is

that

there

will

be

made

these

essentially
,

countries

on

the

internet
.

And

I

think

it's

the

most

important

thing

to

think

about

now
,

because
,

even

though

the

technological

driver

is

inevitable
,

how

it's

made

it

can

take

many

different

forms
.

The

future

country

on

the

internet

is

coming
.

Is

it

a

dystopia

or

a

utopia
?

I

would

say
,

time

will

tell
,

but

it

certainly

is

coming
.

Sondre Rasch
33:47

And

uh
,

of

course
,

that

raises

many

questions

what
,

what

do

you

mean

by

country

and

uh
,

and

what

will

the

relationship

be

to
?

You

know
,

other

countries

and

this

sort

of

new

type

of

social

entity

and

uh
,

that

also

remains

to

be

seen
.

Although

you

know

we

have

a

strategy

at

safety

wing

which

is

very

friendly
.

We

try

to

do

the

good

things

about

everything

and

have

a

very

positive

relationship

with

existing

countries
.

They

won't

play

the

same

role
.

So

I

do

think

geographical

countries

will

continue

to

exist
,

they

just

will

have

less

significance
.

It's

similar

to

when

we

went

from

city-states

to

nation-states

the

city-states

still

exist
,

it's

just

less

important
.

Went

from

city

states

to

nation

states

right
,

the

city

states

still

exist
,

it's

just

less

important
.

They

just

do

the

things

that

are

strictly

relevant

to

the

city
,

right
?

And

I

think

that's

a

sort

of

similar

feel

it

will

have

they

will

still

exist
,

just

be

less

significant
,

and

so

that's

a

prediction
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
34:47

It's

fascinating
.

I

think

we

could

probably

do

a

whole

other

podcast

on

on

this
,

um
,

so

I

might

have

to

uh
,

I

have

to

invite

you

back

on

another

time

because

it

fascinates

me
.

I

love

to

talk

about

the

future

of
.

I

love

to

get

different

perspectives

on

what's

going

to

happen

in

the

future
.

So

a

country

on

the

internet

sounds

good

to

me
.

Sondre Rasch
35:08

Yeah
,

absolutely

On

remote

work
,

our

predictions

come

true

a

lot

of

them
,

but

they

seemed

outrageous

when

we

made

them
,

so

I

mentioned

that

about

cities

and

countries

competing
.

I

certainly

also

think

it

is

inevitable

that

every

company

that

can

be

remote

will

be

remote
.

There

are

economic

drivers

to

it
,

which

makes

it

an

inevitable

outcome

and

similarly
,

every

company

that

can

be

digital

will

be

digital

and

will

be

global
.

That's

another

one

that

I

think

a

lot

of

people

haven't

picked

up

on
,

which

creates

this

completely

different

market
.

This

is

already

the

case
.

I'm

not

sure

why

so

many

people

is
,

in

a

way
,

blind

to

this
,

but

everything

that's

sold

on

internet

is

global
,

which

means

your

market

is

global

and

it's

a

different

market
.

It's

very

big
.

Everything

has

this

infinite

potential
,

and

many

niches

are

huge

on

a

global

basis

that

are

insignificant

on

a

small

base
,

uh
,

on

a

like

a

local

scale
.

So

that's

another

one

that

is

sort

of

startup

related
.

That

uh

is
,

in

a

way
,

has

already

come

true
,

but

but

people

doesn't

seem

to

have

realized

it

yet
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
36:31

Yeah
,

and

my

suspicion

is
,

is

that

people

who

I

suppose

it's

more
.

It's

one

of

those

predictions
,

I

guess

that

if

you're

working

digitally

and

you're

you've

got
,

you've

got

your

finger

on

the

pulse

of

what's

going

on
,

like

something

like

yourself
,

you're

working

remotely

as

well

you're

more

likely

to

be

able

to

be

more
,

I

guess
,

more

sensitive

to

those

changes

and

those

um

transformations

than

if

you're

somebody

who

got

maybe

is

not

necessarily

geared

towards

that
,

you

know

um
,

but

yeah
,

like

I

said
,

I

think

there's

another

podcast

in

there

somewhere
,

so

yeah
,

let's

return

to

that

let's

return

to

it
,

but

no
,

it's

so

before

we

go
,

uh

sundry
,

what

is

the

what's

on

the

horizon

for

you
?

Alex WIlson-Campbell
37:17

I

know

you

said

there

are

some

different

product

areas

that

you

were

thinking

about

adding

to

to

safety

wing
,

but

what's

the

future

for

for

safety

wing

in

general
?

Sondre Rasch
37:28

yeah
,

uh
,

so
,

uh
,

our

um
,

our

uh
,

near-term

future
,

uh
,

our

coming

year
.

You

know

we're

very

exciting

year

ahead
.

We

have

some
,

but

the

big

product

launch

is

probably

the
,

the
,

the

pension

retirement

product
,

just

the

first

of

its

kind
.

It's

the

first

global

portable

uh

retirement

product
.

You

know

that

allow

people

who

live

in

different

countries

to

keep

saving

for

the

same

pension

account
,

which

is

actually

not

possible

today
.

So

you

have

a

lot

of

people

who

have

like

like

me
,

who

are

like

I

have

pension

savings

in

norway
.

I

can't

access

them

here
.

It's's

like

a

separate

I

don't

know
.

Many

people

have

that

problem

who

have

moved
.

They

don't

have

to

be

nomads
,

they've

just

moved

internationally

sometime

in

their

life
.

So

that's

going

to

be

the

big

one
.

Sondre Rasch
38:16

We

also

have
,

of

course
,

a

lot

of

improvement

for

remote

health
.

Remote

health

is

a

big

product

and

we

have

a

lot

of

exciting

product

improvements

um

coming

out
.

So
,

just

working

on
,

there's

also

this

window

of

opportunity

with

remote

health
.

You

know
,

I

think

we

made

this

product

at

this

incredibly

fortunate

time

and

we

have

to

sort

of

take

that

window

of

opportunity

to

to

to

make

sure

that

people

know

about

it
,

that

people

know

that

it's

possible
,

because

a

big

reason
,

I

think

a

lot

of

people

don't

have

benefits

today

when

they

work

internationally
.

Sondre Rasch
38:56

Remote

is

just

because

the

companies

don't

think

it's

possible
.

We

know

that

because

we

hear

it

from

the

companies

who

come

to

us
.

They're

like
,

oh
,

that's

so

fun

that

it's

now

possible
.

And

then

they're

like
,

oh
,

that's

so

fun

that

that's

it's

now

possible
.

And

then

they're
,

you

know
,

implementing

benefits

and

that's
,

of

course
,

a

great

help

for

you

know

these

people's

lives
.

So
,

so

that's

that
.

And

then

we

will

continue

on

to

add

the

other

insurances

and

the

income

protection
,

and

then

we're

going

to

make

a

membership

product
,

sort

of

a

couple

of

years

ahead
,

where

we

uh

like
,

where

you

bundle

all

these

products

into

like

a

membership
,

the

way

you

would

have

nationally

in

a

social

safety

net
,

so

you

get

all

of

it

and
,

uh
,

maybe

you

pay

a

share
,

like

10
,

of

your

incomes
,

um
,

so

it

becomes

available

for

even

more

people

to

have

access

to

a

very

high

quality

social

safety

net

that

works

globally
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
39:54

That's

that's

where

we

want

to

get

to

well
,

for

sure
,

I'll

be

looking

out

and

talking

about

safety

wing
,

because

I

I

really

believe

in

what

you

do
,

sandra

and

um
,

I

think

it's

really

important
,

not

just

because

of

the

situation

that

we're

in

now
,

but

generally

speaking
.

It's

something

that

is

overlooked

and

it's

something

unique

that

you

do
.

So

I'll

be

keeping

close

with

you

and

Enlin

and

keeping

track

on

what

you

do
.

I

will

obviously

be

talking

about

uh

safety

wing

with

the

community

too
,

but

what

I

want

to

do

is

just

wish

you

all

the

best

and

thank

you

so

much

for

uh

taking

time

today

to

speak

to

us

on

the

podcast

and
,

um
,

yeah
,

wish

you

and

the

team

all

the

best

thank

you
,

alex
.

Sondre Rasch
40:41

it

was

uh

great

to

chat

with

you

and

super

nice

to

meet

you
,

and

I

think

this

community

sounds

exciting
.

I

look

forward

to

checking

it

out

and

seeing

how

it

develops

as

well
.

Alex WIlson-Campbell
40:54

Excellent
.

Well
,

I'll

be

speaking

to

you

soon
.

Thanks
,

Sondra
.