RWL233 From Corporate Grind to Remote Mastery with Bellwether’s Founder, Jim Frawley

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
0:00

Our next guest on the Remote Work Life podcast is Jim Frawley. Jim is an expert in change management and organisational development. He's the founder of the Bellwether Method. Jim left a career as a Wall Street executive to rewrite the rules of corporate and personal development, teaching individuals and executives across the globe how to adapt to change in the new economy and beyond. Jim is a renowned keynote speaker, best-selling author of Adapting Emotion Finding your Place in the New Economy, and regular Fast Company Work Life contributor. He's also the host of podcast Jim's Take, a big-time reader, small-time triathlete and full-time father and husband. So in this first section I want to find out more about you. So can you begin by telling me about yourself?

Jim Frawley:
0:54

Hi, my name is Jim Frawley. I run an organization called Bellwether. We are an executive development firm based in New York. We run the gamut executive coaching, business consulting, group workshops and we really specialize in three areas One is strategic planning, two is executive communications. And three, if we think about change management, it's really, how do you get people to prepare for change when they don't know what change is coming?

Jim Frawley:
1:17

Um, for fun, I'm a big reader. I'm reading the thousand and one books to read before you die. I'm a small-time triathlete, love to run and with the kids and just on me. I have strong opinions, a lot of strong beliefs, but at the same time, one of my superpowers, I think, is to withhold all judgment. I think that's one of my big attributes on why clients like to work with me is, you know, we have to shed assumptions, we have to shed judgments, and there's this constant dichotomy between expressing my opinions without judgment on other people and recognizing that other people can have a different type of belief system, and I think that's an important part of coaching organizations and people through it. And if I could speak on my values, my big ones are probably three Recognition is always a big one, but altruism and trust are huge, and those would be the big ones.

Jim Frawley:
2:10

The biggest notable experience that influenced who I am today it's probably the one that had the most watershed moments would be the birth of my daughter. I know it's more of a personal one, but I now have two kids, but she was the first. It just completely led me down a different path. Kids can be shackles, of course, but without her I wouldn't have asked myself the important questions that I should have been asking myself, I wouldn't have quit drinking, I wouldn't have done a lot of the things. And so I see her and I can recognize that I wish to be an example.

Jim Frawley:
2:43

I want her to be strong and you think about why you care about kids. What do you care about? Most people would say their kids, and most people don't ask why. Why do you care about your kids and what do you want? You want her to be satisfied and happy and strong and cool, and for that to happen, I know that I have to have my ducks in a row and I have to have my ability to do different types of things. I have to be my best every day. So that really gave me the motivation to execute and work harder on all the things that I do.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
3:11

As you look back on your life and connect the dots that led you where you are now. What are those dots?

Jim Frawley:
3:19

It's fun to look back on the journey and what are the big dots? And there weren't many big. I guess there were always big dots, but the big ones for me that I can think about where I am today, um, I never liked my job. Uh, when I was in corporate and at 30, I had a legitimate epiphany, uh, laying in bed, that I was effectively wasting my time doing what other people wanted me to do, and that was from a work perspective, a dating perspective, a friend perspective, all of those things and, um, that set me on a different path to to make different types of decisions. And shortly after that, I met the woman who would eventually become my wife. I feel like that was aligned in some well, and so that was another big dot.

Jim Frawley:
4:00

For the first time, I felt like I had someone who really believed in me and my capability to do different types of things, and I floated my idea for starting a business and getting out of corporate. She said absolutely do it. She was a huge champion of it, and so that was a big dot. From there I got married, we had the kid, we had our daughter, isabel, and after that, one of the big dots for me was my realization that I needed a quick drinking. That catapult in my business business tripled almost overnight when I did that and that was a big, important step for me, and now I'm just in constant learning mode. It's you know, next week is probably going to be another big dot. I'm off to do an ayahuasca trip, so we'll see what comes out of that. Um, maybe that's a dot, but there are a lot of ones that set you on your different kind of journey and those would probably be the big ones off the top of my head.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
4:53

Why did you decide to become a leader in your chosen niche?

Jim Frawley:
4:57

I had been seeing a coach for a long time when I was in corporate, because I knew I wanted to do something else.

Jim Frawley:
5:01

I had no idea what I wanted to do and a few things just kind of catapulted at the same time and I decided to become a leader in coaching and consulting and development because I was so disappointed with the product that was out there.

Jim Frawley:
5:16

I remember sitting at the bank that I worked and people coming in to do these workshops and everything else and they were absolutely horrendous and I could not believe that these people would collect a paycheck with no accountability on their part to make sure that things actually worked. It just wasn't good enough to the point where I was disgusted with it. It really bothered me, and when I think about my values of altruism and trust and making sure that things are able to get to where they need to be, these people were really failing the people they were claiming to help. And so I knew that there was a better way and I knew that there was a better business model and I knew that accountability on the coach's perspective was so important and yet constantly ignored. And it's ignored because they didn't have to, and it's turned out that it's become quite a differentiator for us in the business. But that was, I remember, sitting in one particular session where I just sat there and I just started writing out the business plan on how I would do this better.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
6:12

What was the best advice anyone ever gave you and did you follow it?

Jim Frawley:
6:16

I've received so much advice and a lot of it, I just don't take. Most of us don't take the advice. The two bits of advice hit me when I needed to hear something. The first one that comes to mind was when I started my business. A friend of mine gave me the quote you can have the greatest peach tree in Georgia.

Jim Frawley:
6:35

Some people just don't like peaches. And that was phenomenal advice on selling a service business. Because when we have our own business, we put our identity into it. We put so much hope and personality into it and recognizing that it's just not going to land with everybody makes it so much easier to build something that will attract you to the right types of people. Don't waste your time trying to get a client. That's not going to be a good client. And now that we're almost 10 years into the business, I don't have to actively pursue clients, which is phenomenal. It's one of my filters. They will come to me when I'm ready and I tell people look, I want to work with everybody, but I'm only going to work with people when they are ready, and that's been such a good driver in terms of our brand and what we wish to do and accomplishing good things with clients to recognize that some people aren't ready for the peaches yet.

Jim Frawley:
7:29

And then the other one was a good quote that I had read. It's my favorite quote by Jean-Jacques Rousseau. He wrote in a letter to a friend how can anyone be satisfied in life if they are not satisfied with the one person they can never be separated from? And that is a. It's just a classic that you lie in the bed, you make and it all starts with you. And it was a big accountability reminder of me. If I want to be successful, then it's all going to start with me.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
7:56

And what made you choose remote work and how has it benefited you?

Jim Frawley:
8:01

I was actually always remote. You know what made me choose when I launched my business 10 years ago. I just didn't want to pay for office space. I was too cheap and it was just me and all of that, so, as we would add people to the team, they were all in the New York area, so it was fine, and so you know I would always do that debate Do I really need an office space? Do I really need an office space?

Jim Frawley:
8:21

Most of our work comes to the client. We come to the client individually and we come to their office and do the work with them. It's a lot of high touch work there and as we've evolved, we've made some business decisions to just outsource to vendors, and the people that work for me are capable of executing at a high level at remote. So when we were doing all that, we get together if we need to. But I chose remote work primarily because it was cheap. With COVID it just added a whole different level of flexibility with everybody else working from home and it became more open and everyone else. So I was able to expand the business quite a bit because the travel time to clients was significantly cut back, and so now it's just become a new tool for just adding so much flexibility to what we're able to accomplish, and so remote work was really valuable for us.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
9:16

What are your best tips for organizing your day and staying productive?

Jim Frawley:
9:22

There are a couple of things that are that I've learned over time, working remotely I mean. The first and foremost is flexibility is key. Um, standard prioritization. Work always helps. We'll must get done. You know, you kind of list those things out, you plan your day, you do time blocking whatever it is. There's plenty of advice out there on that. So productivity is is there's.

Jim Frawley:
9:41

There's different ways to think about productivity and one of those is just doing a checklist and getting it done and finding the time to do it. But what I would also say is what helped me be more productive was forcing myself to get social, in-person social interaction, not through a computer. If possible, I would run out and get a cup of coffee and get some kind of interaction. Or I might work out of the library for a little bit, for an hour. It gets very lonely in the house and I don't think people fully appreciate the charge we get from getting those little mini social interactions, those micro interactions that give us a good blast of motivation, they clear the head. Productivity will then soar.

Jim Frawley:
10:21

And then, in addition to flexibility, when I'm, when, when I'm working remotely and this is easy for me because I'm the boss but um the flexibility on timing. I'm super productive first thing in the morning. I work from four to seven in the morning and just get so many things done before the kids are awake and I get them out the door. Um, I have some meetings in the day, but those three hours of work in the morning even if my day goes sideways I know that I've gotten what I need to get done first thing in the morning and the rest of the day is good to go. And so those will be two things. One, use the flexibility to your time system that's actually going to get things done, and use that flexibility to your advantage, and then go find the social interaction that you're looking to get.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
11:02

So now I want to find out more about the company that you're part of. So can you please begin by telling me more about the company that you're part of and its origin story?

Jim Frawley:
11:13

The origin story about the company. So the company is Bellwether. We run executive development across a number of different industries, and I had been working in corporate and I hated it mostly in the financial industry, doing a lot of work strategic work and executive communications work and I really earned my chops in 2008, working with the leaders in the financial industry throughout the financial crisis and so I had this incredible access that really impacted a lot of what I wanted to do and how I saw an opportunity within the coaching consultant world, and so while I was working in finance, I hated it. I went to a coach, I put together some business plans not really knowing that what I did was really an option, and I saw that Columbia University had an executive coaching program and it just jumped off the page. I knew it was the right one for me, so I signed up for it immediately, did it, quit the next day, once I finished the program, started the business and then the origin story of naming the business.

Jim Frawley:
12:09

A lot of people don't know what a bellwether means. I went with the title of bellwether for a number of different reasons. I was speaking to a friend and my daughter's name is Isabel, and she told me, I had to have bell in the name and name it after her, and so, after thinking on it, I settled on bellwether, which the term bellwether. It means leader, trendsetter, all of that, which was an appropriate kind of analogy or metaphor for the business. But the word bellwether comes from the lead sheep of a flock. They would put a bell on the lead sheep of a flock and everyone just followed it, and it was usually the hungriest, it was usually the toughest, the smartest, whatever you want to call it. And so, again, a perfect analogy for the business that we do is how do you become a leader, how do you become a trendsetter that other people will recognize and notice? And it really starts with you being your own personal bellwether. So that's how we got started.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
13:01

And what's unique about the company.

Jim Frawley:
13:03

Yeah, coaching and consulting services are a dime a dozen and I recognize that it's a complete red ocean. But what makes us unique and, I think, what's helped us so much? Number one was my experience working with the executives in the financial industry in 2008. During the crisis drives much of my work today and preparing for change when you don't know what change is coming. I learned so much and I had such incredible access at that time with the CEOs, coos, investors where I had access that most people just don't have, and I saw what the good executives really did amid crazy, crazy change and uncertainty. And that's being leveraged now in our work with executives today. But also my philosophy on the coaching and consulting.

Jim Frawley:
13:50

I have strong opinions the product we offer and the service we offer. If I am coaching a team or an individual or working with an organization, I'm getting them to coach themselves. I intend I fully intend to work myself out of a job with each client. No engagement starts without an end date picked up at the very beginning. We have clear success metrics on how to do it. If we don't hit those metrics, then we give money back. There has to be.

Jim Frawley:
14:18

One of the big differentiators for us is we have accountability on us as a firm. The organization pays the bill. The person being coached or team being coached has to have some kind of accountability on them, and the coach and consultant doing the work has to have accountability on them as well. And so that's part of the contracting at the very beginning is how are we going to measure everybody's accountability? And if we don't deliver, then you get your money back and that's helped us take the right kind of clients, that only the ones we're only taking, clients that we can help, and so that's a nice kind of differentiator for us that you don't typically see in a coaching and consulting model.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
14:53

What's your philosophy on building a great team?

Jim Frawley:
14:56

My philosophy for building a great team is twofold. One, your people need to have a belief system in place, and I would argue that you do not have a belief system in place if you can't understand why someone would believe something different than you. You know, oftentimes what I remember most in corporate was people didn't have, or they would take their beliefs to try to pass them off as truths. You cannot know something and believe something at the same time, and a lot of people don't take the time to appreciate that that point. And so, um, you know, when we think about, uh, asking good questions and how do you set up the right kind of questions? You need learners on your team, and that's the second part. Um, they have to understand, uh, what a question is.

Jim Frawley:
15:40

You need people not afraid to ask questions, and people with a robust belief system are able to ask really good questions. And when we think about hiring people and doing these types of things is we want to weed out insecurities at the get-go, and so, when we're building a good team, one thing I insist on is teaching everyone the definition of a question, and it is a request for information. Where you legitimately do not know the answer, you eliminate judgment, you eliminate assumption, because those things will kill you when things are changing so quickly. We have to get different perspectives, we have to understand how to ask these really good questions of ourselves and of others, and that is the key to a really solid team Elimination of judgment, elimination of assumptions and the ability to ask really really good questions.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
16:25

Can you talk me through the steps of your hiring process?

Jim Frawley:
16:30

We're a small team. We use a lot of vendors, so my interview process is probably very different than most. But when I was hiring in corporate right now, all of our hires new hires come from close recommendations. These are people that I trust. People will tell me I typically don't post for a role. I'll usually ask people I know for a good recommendation and I can place people that way and it's a great filter to kind of find the people that you want.

Jim Frawley:
16:57

But when I'm interviewing for corporate and getting people placed in a corporate role, I have to figure out how, uh, what is their capacity for learning? What is their emotional capacity for being wrong, um, and being okay with that. So usually in my questions for hiring is I can ask a series of questions to determine their level of security with themselves? Uh, a highly insecure person. You can find that out very, very quickly, um, and when they're defensive on a team, they're not going to be an asset to that team. So I try to weed out insecurity. I try to weed out people who aren't learners. One of my favorite questions is what can I learn from you? And people who have a robust belief system and are comfortable with their work product are able to answer that pretty quickly and pretty well. So those are the two really big things that I look for when I'm hiring someone good.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
17:47

How would you describe the company's success so far?

Jim Frawley:
17:50

The company's success so far I would describe as fantastic. It's been great, highly satisfying. For me, success is subjective. I don't put success under the typical revenue numbers and all of that that some people would do. If I were to take a look at my business now, uh, I have pure flexibility on what I want to do. I have this amazing ability, and a very lucky ability, that I only take clients that I'm able to help, and so now I don't have to. I'm not forced to take clients and work that I don't want to do. I'm taking clients that are interesting. I'm working with people that we can see and share success in a really impactful way, and so that for me, is such a measure of success that I'm actually able to enjoy the work that I do, and the fact that I could build something so focused on trust is important. I'm able to do that. There are no rules, there's no BS. There's such freedom in doing whatever the hell I want, and that is the ultimate success for me.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
18:58

And what's next on the horizon?

Jim Frawley:
19:02

There's so much to be excited for the company and how we're looking at what's next. We're involving in so many different ways. Ai has major influence in how you can develop people and really challenge people's assumptions in the way that they work, so we could potentially adopt some kind of AI aspect to the business. So we're looking at that. So we're looking at that how we're looking to leverage different types of services that are uniquely human but can leverage AI in a different type of way, still bring real value, Because ultimately, our work is about the person who's being coached or the organization being consulted.

Jim Frawley:
19:34

So how do we get them to where they need to be in the most sustainable way, the most efficient way and the most repeatable way that they can repeat what we teach and it's going to work for them over time. Outside of that, again, no rules. So I get to do whatever I want. I'll write another book I have a new book coming out in early 2025. And then just have fun doing the type of work that we're doing in a really good and impactful way.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
20:02

Is there a particular team or company whose culture you admire?

Jim Frawley:
20:08

There are two cultures that I saw that were really, really. They just jumped out and it's all about it. All came down to setting expectations. So the first one was a client who built this culture of curiosity and questions, and it was a company that I had worked with, which made it extra special. But it was a small team 20, 25 people. Each day at the beginning of the team huddle, everyone rapid fire went through. Yesterday I learned X and some answers were quirky, some were very smart, but everyone learned to ask really, really good questions. They knew they were expected to constantly learn and that completely changed the way the business was executing on a number of different things. So every day you had to talk about what you learned the previous day. So that was great. And then the second one there was a large organization I worked with, not a typical type of industry that you would expect, it was a construction firm, but they, the end of every meeting, everybody stood up from the table and pushed in their chair and I never saw that anywhere, which is kind of an odd thing, but I noticed it.

Jim Frawley:
21:13

And when I was talking about developing people and changing culture and doing these types of things and the CEO was a little skeptical on. Can people change? And this was a perfect example. Where I asked about it, I said why does everyone push in their chair? They said, oh, one of the previous owners demanded it and said everybody had to push in their chair at the end of a meeting. And that dictation, that rule, just stuck with everyone. That owner was gone, but there was a commitment and expectation set stuck with whatever. That owner was gone, but there was a commitment and expectation set. And it was a perfect metaphor for change that people can adopt good things if leadership expects it and communicates it and demands it. And that was a great example as well.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
21:53

And, as we begin to wrap up, what excites you about what's ahead?

Jim Frawley:
21:59

There's so much to be excited for for what's ahead. There are no rules. Now, when you recognize that there are no rules, that you can build anything and I really believe that there are no rules you can believe anything that every, every assumption you have over time is completely out the window. And so the hard part about doing all of that is narrowing it down into what specific thing that you want to go huge on. But there is so much possibility and change ahead, which is scary for so many, myself included.

Jim Frawley:
22:27

Right, there's an unsettling aspect to that, but there is also. There's an opportunity. You know, when we think about what we're capable of building and where we're going to be in just five or 10 years is such an exciting exercise to go through where we can't even predict it. Just five or 10 years is such an exciting exercise to go through where we can't even predict it because we don't even know what's coming around the bend. That excites me in such a very cool and interesting way that we can build whatever we want and there are no rules to prevent us from doing it.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
22:59

And what do you like to do when you're not working?

Jim Frawley:
23:02

I mean, I'm working all the time. That's what you get when you you have a business I think entrepreneurs will relate to that. It's. It's always in your head, um, but if I had to categorize when I'm not sitting at the computer or meeting people for the business, it's uh, I'm either reading I'm reading 1001 books to read before you die or I'm reading some business book or or something. Um, I read one to two books a week at least. I'm running I'm a big runner. I'm a small time triathlete. I like to do triathlon, so that takes up a lot of my training time or I'm doing something with the kids. I have two kids and you know I want to be an active and present part of their lives. They're young and I really enjoy my time with them too.

Alex Wilson-Campbell:
23:44

So there's it's usually I'm either reading, running, training for a triathlon, or we're doing something fun with the kids that's it for today's episode of the remote work life podcast, but if you're a location, independent freelancer, solopreneur, founder or leader and want to provide a case study for the remote work life podcast, get in touch with me via linkedin using the link below in the show notes.