RWL247 Beyond Airbnb: Smarter Stays For Work w/ Ben Davis of Saxbury

Meet Ben Davis And Saxbury

Alex Wilson-Campbell
0:00

Hi

everybody,

it's

Alex

once

again

from

the

Remote

Work

Life

Podcast,

and

today

I'm

joined

by

Ben

Davis.

He's

the

co-founder

of

Saxbury,

a

pioneering

consultancy

shaping

the

future

of

residential

hospitality.

Now,

Ben

has

spent

more

than

two

decades

across

service

departments,

apart

hotels,

co-living

spaces,

and

these

are

sectors

that

have

become

essential

for

co-located

and

remote

professionals

alike.

Founders,

you

know,

consultants

seeking

flexible,

high-quality

places

to

live

and

work

around

the

world.

In

this

episode,

we'll

talk

about

how

the

rise

of

remote

work

is

reshaping

corporate

accommodation

from

what

professionals

look

for

in

flexible

stays

to

how

landlords,

agents,

and

other

stakeholders

are

adapting

to

meet

the

evolving

needs

of

an

evolving

workforce.

Ben,

thank

you

very

much

for

joining

me

today.

Very

welcome.

Thanks

for

the

invitation.

Looking

forward

to

this.

Yes,

me

too,

me

too.

So,

yeah,

Ben,

I'd

like

to

just

keep

this

conversation

as

I

mentioned

around

accommodation,

all

these

different

types

of

accommodation

that

to

be

honest

with

you,

I

I

don't

really

know

that

much

about

them.

When

I

started,

as

I

mentioned

before,

on

the

conversation

that

we

had

before,

there

are

so

many

different

sort

of

connotations

and

so

many

different

people

offering

different

things.

I

myself

have

had

to

stay

in

service

departments.

And

me

being

the

ignorant

one,

you

know,

obviously

you

will

think

about

Airbnb,

but

there's

so

much,

so

much

more

to

it

than

just

that.

So

we're

gonna

be

exploring

that

today.

But

first,

could

you

just

start

by

giving

I

know

I

gave

you

a

bit

of

an

introduction,

but

tell

me

a

bit

about

yourself

and

how

you

got

into

this

uh

this

area

of

work.

So

try

and

keep

it

short

and

sweet.

Ben Davis
1:45

I

I

set

up

Saxbury

uh

after

being

self-employed

for

about

seven

years,

working

as

a

property

finder

and

for

primarily

for

corporate

housing

companies.

And

that

came

about

because

I'd

spent

a

number

of

years

understanding

uh

about

the

demand

side

of

temporary

accommodation.

So

I

worked

for

a

global

corporate

booking

agency

many

years

ago

uh

in

sales.

So

I

built

relationships

with

the

key

bookers

of

temporary

accommodation.

So

those

companies

that

had

global

mobility

requirements,

employees

that

were

traveling

around

and

needed

to

have

those

employees

working

out

their

office

for

extended

periods,

maybe

periods

that

would

be

longer,

longer

than

it

would

be

comfortable

to

be

in

a

hotel.

So

my

job

at

the

time

was

to

identify

who

these

businesses

were,

uh,

who

the

decision

makers,

travel

bookers

were,

and

get

on

the

phone

to

them

and

let

them

know

that

there

was

something

more

comfortable,

a

comfortable

alternative

and

maybe

less

costly

to

staying

in

a

hotel.

And

at

the

time

it

was

very

much

a

concept

cell

because

this

was

pre-Airbnb,

and

we

were,

From Concept Sell To Corporate Housing

Ben Davis
2:55

you

know,

were

effectively

offering

uh

business

grade

accommodation

in

in

comfortable

flats

for

their

employees

and

you

know,

promoting

that

happy,

comfortable

employees

work

harder

and

stay

longer.

So

it

was

very

much

a

concept

cell.

And

I

spent

a

number

of

years

working

within

that

sector,

uh,

first

as

an

agent

and

then

going

to

work

for

uh

an

operating

company,

corporate

housing

company,

and

did

some

consulting

for

a

while

for

another

corporate

housing

company,

primarily

in

sales,

a

bit

of

supply

chain

management.

Realised

I

could

see

that

the

sector

was

growing

rapidly,

as

in

business

take

up

and

demand

for

corporate

housing

was

strong.

I

could

see

that

the

corporate

housing

companies

were

looking

to

grow

not

only

their

client

base,

but

also

their

property

portfolio.

And

many

of

these

companies

didn't

really

have

dedicated

property

acquisitions

teams,

so

people

to

help

expand

their

footprint

in

line

with

their

demand

for

the

clients.

And

similarly,

you

could

see

that

the

estate

agents,

the

real

estate

sector,

didn't

really

know

what

corporate

housing

was.

They

understood

that

maybe

they

could

rent

a

whole

building

to

uh

a

business,

but

they

didn't

really

know

that

there

were

intermediaries

out

there

that

were

leasing

up

buildings

and

then

offering

them

as

service

departments

to

their

clients

for

short

periods.

So

recognizing

a

gap,

if

you

like,

I

wanted

to

try

and

fill

that

knowledge

gap,

which

is

building

relationship

which

was

building

relationships

with

uh

real

estate

owners,

investors,

state

agents,

and

then

connecting

them

with

corporate

housing

companies

that

had

demand.

So

really

interpreting

what

their

demand

was,

identifying

these

blocks

in

key

locations

where

I

knew

the

demand

would

be

strong,

uh,

and

then

working

to

present

those

to

the

operating

companies

and

negotiated

favorable

terms

for

both

parties.

So

I

had

a

bit

of

success

with

that,

did

that

for

about

seven

years.

Uh,

and

then

um

on

a

project,

I

met

uh

I

met

a

chap

who

worked

for

another

real

estate

agency.

Uh,

and

uh

over

quite

a

long

period,

we

we

worked

out

a

business

plan

to

focus

on

building

uh

a

real

estate

consultancy

focused

purely

around

service

departments.

And

I

guess

at

the

time

there

wasn't

really

anybody

doing

that

because

the

service

departments

and

apart

hotels

are

they

come

within

under

the

hotel

use

class.

So

they've

always

been

you

know

established

and

successful

hotel

brokerages,

the

likes

of

the

you

know,

the

big

agents

like

Savals

and

Night

Frank,

et

cetera,

et

cetera.

But

that

nobody

really

had

been

specializing

on

this

that

seemed

like

an

alternative

or

a

niche,

if

you

know

it.

And

so

I

felt

that

there

was

certainly

an

opportunity

there

uh

to

uh

to

present

to

the

world,

to

the

investors,

to

the

operators,

that

there's

somebody

and

there's

a

team

of

people

that

understand

this

sector

with

uh

a

real,

I

guess,

niche

experience.

And

so

we

set

up

SnackSpree

to

provide

that

advice

uh

both

to

developers,

to

operators,

to

investors,

uh

everybody

in

that

value

chain

uh

and

offer

those

solutions,

brokerage,

development

advisory

in

that

space.

We've

been

doing

that

now

approximately

nine

years,

and

uh

yeah,

still

here.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
6:12

Yeah,

and

uh

and

I

like

I

said,

I

I

still

think

there's

there's

still

on

my

on

the

side

that

I'm

on,

at

least,

of

the

side,

i.e.,

you

know,

I'm

I

myself

am

a

consultant,

and

I've

I've

also

been

in

the

the

sort

of

on

the

corporate

side.

So

I've

also

had

situations

where

I've

had

to

book

accommodation

myself,

or

at

least

somebody

within

the

corporate

headquarters,

HR,

or

we

didn't

have

a

global

mobility

team,

had

to

book

that

accommodation

for

me.

And

their

go-to

is

just

like

uh

like

I

said,

Airbnb,

let's

just

look

at

Airbnb,

or

something

like

what's

the

hotel

chain

called?

Those

little

prem

Premier

In.

So

pr

things

like

Premier

In.

So,

but

I've

learned

so

much

just

by

looking,

just

looking

at

your

LinkedIn

profile,

to

be

honest

with

you,

and

also

obviously

looking

at

Saxbury

website

in

terms

of

the

variety

of

accommodation

that

is

is

out

there,

the

kind

of

options

that

are

out

there.

Ben Davis
7:11

Yeah,

absolutely.

Like

I

think

if

you're

an

in

employee

or

if

you're

uh

PA,

uh

travel

department

or

something,

you

you've

got

to

find

accommodation

for

your

employee.

I

guess

it

starts

with

um

this,

you

know,

there's

the

need,

so

and

so

needs

to

be

in

a

certain

place

for

a

certain

period.

It's

about

trying

to

find

out,

I

guess,

firstly,

what

what

what

does

the

employee

really

want?

What

are

they

gonna

be

comfortable

with?

Are

there

budget

requirements

as

well?

If

somebody's

staying

for,

you

know,

longer

than

three

or

four

days

or

a

week

or

more,

then

yes,

an

apartment

would

be

ideal.

It's

probably

it's

probably

going

to

be

less

expensive,

it's

certainly

going

to

be

more

comfortable

because

people

can

cook

for

themselves

and

eat

what

they

want

when

they

want

rather

than

being

restricted

around

breakfast.

And

there's

also

you

know,

there's

lots

of

other

reasons

why

business

is

businesses

above

corporate

housing

or

service

departments.

It

could

be

it

could

be

a

lady

traveling

on

on

her

own,

not

you

know,

and

and

wanting

to

be

more

self-sufficient

rather

than

having

to

dine

in

the

restaurant,

you

know,

and

it's

it's

just

these

things

when

you're

a

regular

traveller,

you

you

probably

want

to

do

things

more

on

your

own

shift

and

the

different

types

of

accommodation.

I

mean,

it's

uh

yeah,

it

must

be

very

difficult

for

for

businesses

to

work

out

what's

what

because

you'll

look

online,

you'll

Google

service

departments

in

Birmingham,

for

example,

uh,

and

you

won't

know

who's

an

agent,

you

won't

know

who's

an

operator,

you

won't

know

who

owns

their

flats,

who

rents

them.

You

might

not

Why Booking Apartments Is So Confusing

Ben Davis
8:40

care.

But

actually,

you

what

you

care

about

is

you

know,

are

they

is

is

is

the

flat

real?

Is

it

clean,

safe,

and

legal?

Uh

is

the

operator

going

to

be

professional

like

a

hotelier,

and

uh,

you

know,

are

you

gonna

get

any

uh

blowback

from

the

employee

when

they

when

they

check

in?

Alex Wilson-Campbell
8:58

Yeah,

I

think

you

put

I

mean

we

talked

about

this

as

well

last

time

we

spoke,

but

yeah,

you

you

you

do

that's

what

I

would

care

about,

or

at

least

if

I

was

booking

on

behalf

of

somebody

else,

I'd

care

about

the

their

comfort,

the

facilities,

you

know,

all

those

different

types

of

things.

And

I

just

did

an

exercise

a

couple,

you

know,

couple

after

again

after

we've

finished

speaking,

just

to

see,

you

know,

if

I

was

trying

to

book

a

an

apartment

in,

I

don't

know,

in

centre

of

London,

for

example,

I

just

did

an

exercise.

I

thought,

let

me

see

how

easy

it

is

for

me

to

do

that.

And

it

it

it

really

wasn't

because

you

obviously

again

you've

got

Airbnb,

but

you've

then

you

I

as

I

said

last

time,

there's

like

you

see

these

different

websites

and

you

can't

distinguish

whether

the

website

is

an

agent

or

is

like

some

sort

of

aggregator

of

of

of

sort

of

apartments

or

apart

hotels,

and

then

you

kind

of

go

down

a

bit

of

a

rabbit

hole.

Ben Davis
9:49

So

it's

kind

of

like

and

I

I

couldn't

see

any

sort

of

necessarily

any

sort

of

is

there

any

regulator

to

sort

of

like

I

don't

know

that

helps

you

with

going

in

that

direction

of

which

ones

are

the

you

know

the

the

the

ones

that

uh

worthwhile

staying

at

or

it

or

there

is

a

company

called

the

Association

of

Service

Department

Providers.

It's

been

around

for

a

long

time.

Um

it's

it's

an

association

that

uh

professional

service

department

operators

can

seek

them

out,

uh

join

them,

get

accredited.

So

somebody

will

come

visit

their

properties

and

you

know

give

them

a

seal

of

approval

based

on

you

know

a

number

of

different

hallmarks

and

factors

that

business

travelers

demand,

safety,

legality,

all

those

kind

of

things.

And

then

they're

part

of

that

group.

But

again,

it's

very

niche

and

it's

difficult,

you

know.

And

companies

will

then

promote

that

they're

registered

with

the

ASAP,

and

then

I

guess

that's

a

hallmark

of

quality.

But

I

guess

if

you

don't

know

what

ASAP

is,

then

you

don't

necessarily

you

don't

know

to

look

for

it.

So

you

know,

the

ASAP

team,

who

I

know

really

well,

with

some

great

people,

they

will

promote

this

to

the

nth

degree.

But

you

know,

I

guess

until

um

the

it

becomes

sort

of

somehow

enshrined

in

the

law

with

respect

to

property

use

classes

and

you

know

what

you

what

one

must

do

to

operate

service

accommodation,

then

it'll

always

be

something

that

you're

always

just

trying

to,

you

know,

eagerly,

but

at

the

same

time

have

a

huge

amount

of

barriers

to,

you

know,

you

mentioned

about

you

know

how

you

find

property

and

the

different

sorts

of

property,

and

yeah,

it's

really,

really

difficult.

And

a

lot

of

the

time

when

you

find

service

departments

on

a

website

other

than

Airbnb,

other

than

booking.com,

you

might

not

even

be

able

to

actually

reserve

them

for

specific

dates.

You

might

just

have

to

make

an

inquiry

and

wait

till

they

get

back

to

you.

And

that's

mainly

borne

out

of

the

fact

that

you

know,

if

you're

if

you're

an

operator

and

you've

got

a

block

of

20

flats

and

the

majority

of

your

guests

staying

for

30,

60,

90

days,

these

people

might

have

an

option

to

extend.

So

the

last

thing

you

want

to

do

is

pull

the

rug

from

beneath

them

and

sell

dates

in

advance

for

three

nights

or

four

nights.

So,

you

know,

these

short

stays

effectively

fill

voids.

And

so

it

depends

on

the

strategy.

You

know,

then

conversely,

you've

got

a

lot

of

people,

the

operational

Airbnb,

they're

actively

targeting

short

stays

for

higher

rates,

leisure

guests,

and

they

do

the

other

and

they

kind

of

sell

the

short

stays

well

in

advance.

And

if

you

want

a

long

stay

and

corporately

want

to

stay

for

a

week

or

a

month,

then

you

know,

you

might

have

a

hard

job

actually

getting

into

that

flat

Accreditation, Availability, And Trust Signals

Ben Davis
12:30

because

the

availability

calendar's

been

repeated.

So,

you

know,

so

that's

why

I

guess

it's

it's

best

if

you're

if

you're

a

business

traveller

or

yeah,

if

you're

a

repeat

regular

apartment

user,

maybe

not

to

use

websites

like

Airbnb,

maybe

to

use

specialist

travel

booking

companies,

specialist

apartment

booking

companies,

relocation

companies,

because

they

tend

to

have

an

account

manager,

they'll

do

it

for

you.

You

tell

them

what

you

need,

assessment.

They

say,

okay,

Alex,

so

and

so

needs

to

be

in

Burnham

for

two

months

within

a

matter

of

half

an

hour.

They've

sent

them

lists

of

vetted

options

that

are

all

available

and

they

all

meet

the

budget

and

the

requirements.

And

you

know,

companies

like

Silverdoor

Booking

Agency,

they're

pretty

much

one

of

the

biggest

global

booking

agencies

they've

got,

you

know,

big

global

supply

chain.

Uh,

and

they'll

they'll

go

and

handle

your

needs

and

uh

you

know

provide

provide

a

good

service

with

it

as

well

and

sort

of

demystify

the

whole

process.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
13:26

That's

what

you

want.

You

want

you

don't

want

to

have

I

mean,

I

like

I

said,

I

spent

as

an

exercise,

I

just

spent

like

probably

30

minutes,

and

I

still

didn't

get

to

the

point

where

I

was

like,

yep,

that's

the

one.

So

I

can

only

imagine

that

if

you

if

you're

if

you've

got

you

know

a

corporate

team

or

if

you're

again

somebody

like

myself,

it's

gonna

be

difficult.

But

I

I've

noticed

as

well.

I

mean,

there's

again,

there's

so

many

different

options.

We

talk

about

up

heart

hotels,

all

these

different

kinds

of

variations.

Have

you

uh

uh

Ben,

have

you

seen

the

needs

of

professionals

and

businesses

change

over

over

the

years?

I

mean,

even

since

I

I

mean

I've

noticed

it,

but

I

I

I

don't

necessarily

know

what

it

is,

if

that

makes

sense.

But

I've

noticed

that

there's

there's

more

it's

more

in

your

face

a

bit

more

in

terms

of

your

ability

to

go

to

a

co-living

place

or

your

ability

to

go

to

a

service

department.

Is

that

something

that

is

is

you

notice

as

well?

I'm

well

I'm

sure

you

have.

Ben Davis
14:22

I

mean,

like

what's

in

a

name,

I

guess,

like

service

department.

What

is

a

service

department?

It's

an

apartment

being

service,

but

what

does

that

really

mean?

You

know,

service

department,

the

service

department

of

sector

is

a

bit

of

a

capsule

for

you

know

corporate

housing,

apartment

hotels,

and

you

know,

in

its

purest

form,

a

service

department

generally

would

be

like

an

operating

company

who

probably

signs

a

lease

on

a

building,

uh,

decorates

it

beautifully,

nice

furniture,

uh,

provides

cleaning

once

a

week,

bundles

in

the

bills,

and

then

makes

it

available

for

periods

of

weeks

and

months

to

corporate

guests.

An

apart

hotel

may

be

more

relatively

new

here

in

the

UK,

though

being

actually

quite

popular

in

places

like

Australia

uh

and

elsewhere

in

the

euro

and

Asia

for,

I

don't

know,

maybe

20,

30

years,

believe

it

or

not.

And

but

an

apartment

hotel

is

essentially,

you

know,

maybe

50,

100

units

in

a

block.

So

more

hotel

kind

of

volume

of

units,

each

unit

being

kind

of

like

a

self-contained

studio

one

bed

or

two

bed

flat,

probably

a

bit

smaller

than

a

regular

home,

uh,

still

with

that

service

element,

housekeeping

bills

included,

normally

with

a

front

desk.

So

you

kind

of

walk

through

it,

has

that

sense

of

security

that

when

you

walk

through

the

door

and

you

you

might

see

somebody,

uh,

there

might

be

a

gym,

it

might

be

a

cafe

or

something,

and

then

you

can

rent

these

flats

for

periods

of

a

night

or

maybe

three

months

or

four

months.

And

so

that's

a

more

sort

of

I

guess

sort

of

sanitized

corporate

version

of

the

service

department,

if

you

like.

Right.

And

and

led

your

guests

will

choose

that

because

they,

you

know,

everybody

likes

the

idea

of

an

Airbnb,

but

sometimes

the

reality

falls

short,

like

you

know,

it

looks

beautiful

pictures,

and

then

the

reality

that

you're

in

somebody's

home

kind

of

you

know

doesn't

work

for

a

lot

of

people.

Uh

or

you

know,

maybe

maybe

they're

inexperienced

travellers

and

they

just

like

the

this

notion

of

security

where

they

go

in

through

the

front

door

and

they

go

upstairs

and

then

you

know

they

there's

not

a

door

onto

the

street.

So

apart

hotels

work

for

that

reason.

A

lot

of

groups

of

you

know,

friends

and

leisure

guests

might

book

it

over

the

weekend

because

they

can,

you

know,

they've

got,

you

know,

dare

I

say

with

the

party

pad

or

somewhere

to

get

get

ready

before

they

go

out,

you

know.

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

They're

fun.

Serviced Apartments Vs Apart-Hotels Vs Co-Living

Alex Wilson-Campbell
16:45

So

yeah.

Are

they

normally

do

they

normally

have

like

communal

spaces

in

the

part

hotels

as

well?

Because

that

that's

something

I'm

noticing

a

lot.

People

are

sort

of

demanding

more,

is

sort

of

if

they're

especially

like

you

said

these

groups

people

get

together,

they

have

one

of

these

communal

spaces.

Is

that

something

that's

Cameron?

Ben Davis
17:01

It's

always

a

challenge

when

you're

a

developer

because

you

know

you're

looking

at

you

know

revenue

or

development

costs

on

a

price

per

square

meter.

So

if

it's

non-revenue

generating

space

as

a

developer,

you've

got

to

kind

of

ask

yourself,

why

is

it

why

is

it

there?

But

you

know,

you

you

you

tend

to

find

you

certainly

find

communal

spaces

within

co-living

developments.

You

know,

co

co-living

is

essentially

residential

rather

than

hospitality,

but

there

are

elements

of

hospitality

that

are

creped

crept

into

co-living

and

to

make

it

a

more

interesting

rental

product,

you

know,

co-living

in

its

purest

form

is

essentially

you

know,

it's

built

around

accommodation.

It's

residential

accommodation

for

people

staying,

you

know,

certainly

three

months,

but

probably

12

months.

They

probably

have

a

little,

I

guess

nearest

thing

I

could

describe

it

as

if

you

think

of

purpose-built

modern

student

accommodation,

but

they're

available

to

non-students.

Uh

maybe

the

design

is

slightly

more

or

less

student-y.

Instead

of

having

a

common

room,

you're

going

to

have

maybe

a

co-working

room

where

the

residents

can

come

down

from

their

probably

tiny

flat,

but

come

and

enjoy

some

convenient.

And

these

communal

facilities

are

active

to

value

add

on

the

rent

because

you

know,

maybe

somebody's

paying

an

all-inclusive

rental

upstairs

that

might

be

proportionately

slightly

higher

than

it

would

be

if

they

were

renting

a

room

in

a

share

flat.

But

actually,

when

you've

bundled

in

your

bills

and

when

you've

added

a

gym,

a

cinema

room,

you

don't

have

to

take

that

gym

membership.

Yeah.

It

actually

kind

of

makes

sense.

The

communal

aspects

are

effectively

the

hook

for

upstairs.

But

in

an

apartment

space,

normally

the

communal

spaces

would

be,

you

know,

maybe

more

minimal,

again,

because

of

development

costs,

and

it's

probably

reserved

to

be

things

like

co-working

or

maybe

even

a

coffee

shop.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
18:57

Got

it.

You've

actually

answered

my

next

question,

actually,

quite

quite

a

lot,

which

is

good

because

uh

obviously

when

you're

booking,

you

obviously

expect

good

Wi-Fi,

but

apart

from

that,

you're

gonna

have

a

cinema.

Well,

I

wouldn't

mind

a

cinema

room,

actually,

but

that

that'd

be

more

in

a

car

a

co-living

space,

as

you're

saying.

What

other

sort

of

default

facilities

should

uh

especially

as

a

corporate,

would

you

would

would

you

sort

of

expect?

Because

I

know

I'd

want

a

desk

at

least.

Ben Davis
19:26

Well,

uh

yeah,

like

I

think

let's

just

say

most

of

the

corporate

focused

service

department

companies

generally

post-COVID,

post-lockdown,

really,

they

they

they

had

to

find

ways

of

cramming

desks

in

the

flats

because

actually

a

lot

of

people

that

were

booking

them

were

either

not

in

an

office

or

they

were

thinking,

or

maybe

they

were

you

know

self-employed

people.

And

I

thought,

but

you

know

what,

rather

than

booking

a

hotel

and

get

a

co-working

space,

I

need

to

be

in

this

town

or

this

city

for

a

week

or

a

month

visiting

clients.

I'm

just

gonna

book

a

service

department,

but

I

need

this

to

be

my

office

as

well.

So

a

lot

of

these

companies

were

making

sure

that

they

can

put

a

desk

in

there.

I

guess

you

know,

some

were

just

uh

I

don't

know,

saying,

Oh,

well,

you

can

work

at

the

dining

table,

but

actually

that's

not

really

very

comfortable

when

you're

so

yeah,

no

a

lot

of

the

good

corporate

housing

companies

I

know

uh

would

would

make

sure

that

they

have

a

desk,

work,

work,

work

table

in

there,

uh

work

work

chair,

sorry.

Obviously,

good

good

strong

Wi-Fi

uh

or

the

ability

to

upgrade

that

Wi-Fi

to

something

slightly

stronger

for

a

cost.

But

you

know

what?

Apart

from

that,

there

aren't

really

many

work

or

specialist

work

provisions

put

into

the

plan.

Um

you

know,

they

have

a

coffee

machine,

but

you

kind

of

expect

that

anyway,

you

know,

an

espresso

or

something.

There

are

there

is

yeah,

there

was

one

company

I

came

across

that

actually

was

very

focusing

their

service

departments

very

much

on

the

worker

where

they

would

uniquely

they

would

put

a

desk

in

there

and

they

would

put

like

dual

screens

in

there,

so

you

could

just

go

and

put

it

up

in

company

in

London,

can't

quite

remember

the

name

now.

Uh

and

yeah,

they're

called

Remote

Lease.

Uh

and

they

kind

of

grow

throughout

London,

good

company.

But

yeah,

so

it's

maybe

if

you're

a

tech

person,

you

don't

want

to

have

to

take

all

that

paraphernalia

with

you

to

you.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
21:15

Yeah,

exactly.

But

I

I

guess

then,

because

you

talked

about

your

your

relationship,

your

your

uh

intermediary

landlords,

investors,

etc.

Are

they

sort

of

open

and

adapting

to

this

new

wave

of

professionals?

Because

I

can

only

imagine

if

somebody's

if

there's

a

landlord

looking

to

rent

their

premises,

they're

thinking,

I

just

want

a

tenant

in

there,

I

want

a

tenant,

but

are

are

they

sort

of

open

now

to

sort

of

different

types

of

tenant?

And

are

agents

the

same?

Ben Davis
21:47

Yeah,

I

mean,

I

guess

it's

getting

there.
I

feel

like

maybe

things

are

coming

full

circle

now.

I

mean,

there

was

there

was

a

time

where

you

know,

when

I

first

set

up

the

business,

you

you're

contacting,

so

generally

you

we

I

would

speak

to

landlords

that

have

multiple

dwellings

in

one

building,

so

like

a

whole

block

of

ideally,

you

know,

one-bed

flats,

because

these

would

be

quite

popular

for

corporate

guests.

And

you

we

would

speak

to

these

landlords

What Business Travelers Actually Need

Ben Davis
22:10

and

say,

look,

you

know,

put

some

decent

furniture

in

there,

you

know,

you'd

specify

what

that's

like,

and

then

the

operator

would

give

you

know

maybe

a

five-year

or

a

10-year

rental

agreement,

and

the

owner

would

think,

well,

that's

great,

because

they've

got

a

secure

tenant

for

the

next

five

years,

can

look

after

the

building,

maybe

take

care

of

light

repairs,

and

all

they

have

to

do

is

put

some

furniture

in

it.

Obviously,

you

know,

after

Airbnb

came

about,

you

know,

every

every

man

of

his

dog's

doing

short

bets,

and

then

for

very

short

periods

to

probably

a

lot

of

the

time

people

that

hadn't

really

been

vetted.

So

landlords

then

became

very,

very

wary

of

these

properties

being

used

or

misused

by

by

the

by

the

operator.

So

a

lot

of

landlords

and

the

stage

at

Asians

kind

of

pulled

back

for

offering

these

buildings.

But

I

would

say

it's

coming

back

full

circle.

Why?

Because,

well,

you

know,

we

had

an

interest

rate

shock,

you

know,

a

couple

of

years

ago.

Uh,

and

what

that

did

was

that

made

it

increasingly

difficult

for

private

buy-to-let

landlords

to

actually

make

any

money

or

really

to

stay

in

the

game

because

a

lot

of

buy-to-let

landlords,

you

know,

they

they

just

wanted

a

good

tenant

to

pay

their

rent.

They

didn't

often

didn't

enjoy

being

a

landlord.

Uh,

they

were

holding

it

for

capital

growth.

Um

while

they

made

some

money

and

they

weren't

being

taxed

too

much,

they

kept

it.

But

then

obviously

the

the

incentives

were

removed,

the

taxes

increased,

the

interest

rates

went

up,

and

a

lot

of

buy-to-let

landlords

got

out

of

the

game.

So,

you

know,

what's

replacing

those

buy-to-left

landlords

is

often

more

commercial

landlords

or

landlords

with

more

commercial

aims.

Uh,

and

that,

in

conjunction

with

the

recent

thing

that's

gone

through

Parliament,

which

is

called

Rent's

Rights

Bill,

is

making

it

less

exciting

for

private

individuals

to

buy

buy

buy-to-left

properties

and

rent

them

to

the

average

go.

So,

what

we're

seeing

is

having

it

coming

full

circle

where

you've

got

more

commercial

parties

going

into

investments,

buying

or

redeveloping

blocks

of

5,

10,

15,

20

flats,

maybe

even

a

whole

apart

hotel,

and

then

finding

corporate

tenants

to

sign

a

long-term

lease

agreement.

Uh,

because

obviously

they're

you

know,

their

return

requirements

probably

slightly

some

respects,

you

know,

they're

looking

for

a

good

income

guarantee,

they're

not

looking

to

deal

with

private

tenants.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
24:27

And

I

I

are

remote,

I

mean,

I

don't,

this

is

the

remote

worker

podcast,

I've

got

to

ask

some

remote

specific

questions.

Are

remote

workers

digital

nomads?

Are

they

sort

of

becoming

more

into

the

mix

of

those

seeking

the

you

know

those

types

of

accommodations?

Whether

that

be

people

who

are,

I

don't

know,

the

solopreneur

or

the

the

digital

nomad

or

even

the

corporates

who

are

seeking

you

know

stays

for

their

for

their

teams.

Is

that

is

that

coming

into

the

mix

more?

Ben Davis
24:57

I

mean,

I

guess

there

are

like

there

there

are

so

many

like

if

if

you've

got

like

a

a

I

don't

know

a

pie

chart

of

demand

for

like

who

who

stays

in

a

service

department,

it's

just

so

varied.

You

know,

that

that

would

be

maybe

the

the

the

biggest

slice

of

that

pie

would

would

be

would

be

business

travel,

and

it

would

be

business

travel

that

is

booked

for

or

by

blue

chip

organizations

and

their

relocation

companies.

And

so

so

in

that

case,

that

demand

hasn't

really

changed,

other

than

maybe

the

length

of

stay

might

have

changed.

Like

uh,

you

know,

originally

businesses

might

relocate

somebody

for

a

long

period,

a

senior,

that

they

give

them

a

flat

for

three,

six,

nine

months,

give

them

a

flat

for

12

months

to

see

how

the

project

works

out

and

to

help

with

the

costs.

And

now

a

lot

of

that

has

kind

of

been

reined

in,

you

know,

mainly

in

line

with

a

lot

of

corporate

sort

of

uh

EHD

and

carbon,

you

know,

trying

to

meet

carbon

neutral

targets,

reducing

travel

and

all

that

kind

of

good

stuff.

So

wanting

to

travel

less,

but

still

I

would

say

the

majority

of

the

demand

for

service

accommodation

is

is

Landlords, Leases, And Market Shifts

Ben Davis
26:05

that

sort

of

corporate

white

collar

stuff.

Then

you

you've

got

you've

got

construction

workers,

right?

You've

got

people,

blue-collar

work.

So,

you

know,

there

could

be

a

project

where

they're

gonna

be

building

for

the

next

18

months

and

they've

got

to

get

a

workforce

into

a

place

because

you

know

they

haven't

got

everybody

there,

they're

coming

in

from

wherever

it

is,

Ireland

or

Scotland

or

around

the

country.

They've

got

to

be

able

to

accommodate

a

whole

bunch

of

brickies

or

construction

people

or

structural

engineers

in

chairflats,

so

that's

one

type,

right?

And

that

they

can

stay

for

months

on

end,

there's

leisure

guests,

and

you

mentioned

about

you

know

digital

nomads,

and

that's

a

that's

a

whole

other

sector.

And

I

think

a

lot

of

the

time,

I

mean,

I

I'm

not

one

of

those,

so

I

can't

speak

with

confidence

about

it,

but

I'd

like

to

think

that

if

I

could

go

anywhere

in

the

world

as

a

digital

nomad

or

someone

like,

would

I

would

I

come

to

London?
I

don't

know.

Is

this

somewhere

warmer,

nicer,

less

expensive,

safety?

Yeah,

exactly.
So

you

you

basically

when

you

were

an

individual

entrepreneur,

solo

entrepreneur,

you

actually

mentioned

it's

like

you

know,

you've

got

choices,

haven't

you?

But

when

you

work

for

a

corporate,

you

you

go

where

you're

put.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
27:18

This

is

it.

And

actually

last

time

we

spoke

as

well,

because

I

re

I

recently

moved

out

of

London

to

kind

of

get

away

from

the

from

the

hustle.

And

I

I

at

the

time

I

didn't

really

think

about

uh

like

service

accommodation,

short-term

accommodation.

All

I

was

thinking

about

was

actually

I

want

to

kind

of

get

out

of

London.

I

want

to

sort

of

a

bit

more

greenery,

a

bit

more

sort

of,

you

know,

I

don't

had

I

thought

had

I

probably

put

more

thought

into

it,

it

was

such

a

stressful

time,

period

of

time

movie.

We

were

just

thinking

about

getting

somewhere

to

get

what

we

probably

should

have

done

is

like

get

sort

of

like

a

service

accommodation.

Ben Davis
27:55

Because

the

that's

the

thing

with

relocation,

like

you've

got

you

know

relocation

firms

out

there

that

deal

with

you

know

the

needs

of

employees,

and

you

know,

imagine

imagine

you

know

you

work

for

medical

medical

company

and

you

have

to

uh

and

they

and

they

and

and

you

live

in

the

States,

but

they've

said

look

you've

got

this

senior

job

in

in

uh

in

Oxford,

for

example,

and

it's

a

nice

place,

and

you're

thinking,

okay,

well,

I

probably

won't

want

to

buy

in

Oxford.

Last

thing

you

want

to

do

is

buy

somewhere

now

before

you

even

know

what

it's

like

to

live

there.

So

rent

service

department

for

a

couple

of

months,

two,

three

months

gives

you

a

chance

to

actually

get

a

feel

for

specific

areas.

You

might

say,

actually,

I'm

in

the

city,

but

I

don't

want

to

live

there

because

I

don't

know,

it's

uh

convenient

or

it's

noisy

or

whatever,

and

then

you

get

to

work

out

where

is

good,

and

then

you

can

finally

put

down

routes.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
28:47

Yeah,

precisely

that

I

uh

we've

just

sort

of

we

signed

ourselves

into

a

nice

12

contract.

Yeah.

I

mean,

we

we

got

lucky

because

we

were

in

a

nice,

nice

location,

but

it

doesn't

always

work

out

that

way.

I

had

a

story

of

uh

one

of

my

friends,

he

actually

moved,

he's

probably

he's

moved

twice

now,

and

again

he

signed

this

long-term

accommodation

when

what

really

what

he

should

have

done,

you

should

have

got

something

a

bit

more

short-term,

you

know,

with

his

kids

and

uh

something.

And

you

can

get

quite

nice

places

as

well.

That's

another

thing

I

didn't

realise.

I

I

I

just

assumed

in

my

ignorance

that

you

know,

short-term

accommodation

is

just

an

apartment,

apartment,

apartment.

When

now

it's

kind

of

you

know,

houses,

you

know,

you've

got

four

or

five

bedroom

houses

as

short-term

accommodation,

which

would

have

been

for

me.

I've

got

three

kids,

so

there's

five

of

us,

so

that

would

have

been

ideal

for

us

again.

So

I've

learned

a

valuable

lesson,

uh,

an

expensive

lesson.

Well

he

has

anyway.

So,

what's

on

the

horizon

then

for

for

you,

Ben,

and

any

exciting

projects

that

you're

working

on?

You

know,

anything

exciting

in

the

world

of

of

short

term

accommodation

that

we

need

to

be

aware

of?

Ben Davis
29:52

Um

maybe

exciting

for

me.

So

a

big

area

for

my

business,

if

I'm

starting

this

year

from

January,

we

we
We

launched

a

development

advisory

service.

And

what

that

is

in

its

purest

form

is

we

noticed

speaking

to

developers,

investors,

and

landlords

across

the

country,

that

a

lot

of

commercial

landlords

were

perhaps

struggling

to

work

out

what

the

future

held

for

their

block,

meaning

commercial

values

or

commercial

yields

have

moved

out,

making

things

and

interest

rates

have

gone

up

and

bill

costs

have

gone

up,

making

it

more

difficult

for

commercial

landlords

to

build

properties.

And

this

development

advisory

syllabus

helps

landlords

understand

that

they

could

take

the

building

into

more

defensive

territory.

I'll

give

you

an

example.

But

actually

that

building

will

convert

quite

well

into

something

else.

And

maybe

the

natural

uh

route

might

just

say,

okay,

well,

Who Really Stays In These Properties

Ben Davis
31:05

let's

let's

build,

let's

convert

it

to

residential.

But

with

no

guarantee

of

what

the

exit

is,

because

you

know,

imagine

you

take

an

office

block

and

you

convert

it

into

50,

60

very

similar

flats,

you're

holding

quite

a

liability

there

to

sell

50

or

60

flats.

So

the

idea

of

perhaps

creating

something

more

hospitality

shaped

is

quite

appealing.

Um,

and

the

developers

don't

have

to

go

through

the

whole

affordable

housing

kind

of

question

that

building,

they're

going

from

commercial

to

commercial.

They're

able

to

build

something

apart

hotel

shape.

If

only

they

knew

what

an

apart

hotel

really

looked

like,

what

were

the

characteristics

of

it,

what

would

the

layout

be,

what

would

the

PL

look

like,

you

know,

what's

it

going

to

cost

the

developer?

Who

are

the

good

architects?

So

it's

all

that

that

knowledge

gap

that

we

seek

to

bridge

with

the

development

advisory

service.

So

we

offer

that

to

commercial

landlords

up

and

down

the

country

from

Edinburgh

to

Brighton

and

everything

in

between,

anywhere

where

it

might

be

viable

or

sensible

to

operate

uh

to

open

an

apartment

hotel.

We

go

through

those

feasibility

scenarios.

And

then

very

quickly,

developer

or

investor

can

work

out

is

this

viable?

And

if

it

is,

we

can

take

it

to

the

next

step,

which

is

uh

they'll

then

obviously

go

and

get

planning,

and

then

we

can

look

to

identify

an

operating

solution.

So

bring

it

to

market,

getting

an

operator

in

there

to

sign

an

agreement

of

25

years

to

give

them

that

exit,

to

give

them

that

long-term

guarantee,

maybe

introduce

funding

solutions.

So

that's

something

we've

been

working

on

since

January

with

my

colleague

Andrew

Shaw.

And

we've

got

some

really

interesting,

exciting

projects

because

you

can

imagine

there

are

a

lot

of

redundant

assets

out

there

that

need

new

life

breathed

into

them.

And

so

that's

really

what

we're

helping

these

commercial

landlords

do,

helping

them

understand

that

you

know

there's

a

whole

asset

class

and

type

of

use

out

there

that

they

might

not

have

considered

or

maybe

have

considered,

but

just

don't

quite

know

how

to

get

there.

So

that's

a

that's

a

big

area

for

us.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
33:04

It

sounds

like

the

landscape

of

you

know

those

business

areas

is

gonna

change,

you're

gonna

see

a

slightly

different

type

of

uh

accommodation.

Do

you

think

that

will

spread

then

beyond

the

set

you

know

the

more

business

areas

into

sort

of

like

I

know

you've

got

a

viability

is

a

big

thing,

but

do

you

see

it

sort

of

catching

on

elsewhere?

Ben Davis
33:23

Well,

the

thing

is,

and

uh

not

necessarily

for

corporate

housing.

Look,

corporate

corporate

housing

or

service

departments

for

corporates,

it's

led

by

a

specific

demand.

Uh,

and

more

often

than

not,

there

are

it's

either

you

know

a

CBD

district

like

like

London,

where

there

are,

you

know,

there's

there

are

there

are

thousands

of

businesses

there

that

will

uh

have

a

requirement

for

employees

coming

in

there,

big

and

small.

And

then

there'll

be

pockets

of

demand

across

the

country,

like

you

know,

a

manufacturing

plant,

uh,

an

aerospace

demand,

a

uh

an

industrial

complex

or

some

maybe

an

Amazon

uh

office.

But

other

than

that,

a

lot

of

the

demand

that

will

be

around

the

country

will

be

just,

I

don't

know,

leisure

or

sporadic

demand.

And

it's

often

these

service

departments

they

operate

from

purely

residential

buildings,

sometimes

in

shared

blocks,

sometimes

private

homes.

You

know,

how

viable

is

that

long

term?

Because

ultimately

we

have

a

housing

shortage

in

the

UK.

Uh,

the

government's

doing

everything

they

can

seemingly

to

solve

it.

You

know,

certainly

talking

a

good

game.

And,

you

know,

uh

one

thing

that

they're

bringing

in

is

or

looking

to

bring

in

will

be

registration

and

effectively

use

classes

for

service

accommodation

that

kind

of

identify

what

it

is

rather

than

say

residential

building

being

operated

for

short,

that's

either

in

breach

of

planning

permission

or

with

consent

of

local

authority.

So

I

think

you

know,

with

with

regulation,

I

guess

comes

a

more

sort

of

solid

industry,

and

with

companies

like

the

ASAP,

the

Association

of

Service

Department

providers

doing

what

they

can

to

legitimise

the

sector,

it

can

only

really

be

a

good

thing.

Alex Wilson-Campbell
35:08

Sounds

good,

it

sounds

exciting.

Ben,

it's

been

it's

been

great

speaking

to

you,

it's

been

insightful.

I

mean,

I've

got

more

questions,

you

know,

but

you

answered

the

main

one.

So

thank

you

for

your

time.

And

yeah,

it's

been

really

good

to

speak

to

you.

Ben Davis
35:21

Thank

you.

Thanks

for

inviting

me.